US late game

Because they are insanely fast and punch massive amount of damage. Used by a player who knows what he's doing they are able to go in - take a shoot - and go out before you will be able to react and nothing is able to keep up with them except for combat blitz Panther.

But I don't really find them fast. I'd say they're about the same speed as Sherman. Good, but not that that fast. I agree about the nice damage (240 according to stats), but I'd say its terrible survivability makes up for that.

M36 Jacksons are a 60 range, highly mobile, turreted tank destroyer that do 240 damage per shot (Jp4, Su85 only do 160). It out-ranges everything OKW have except for the Jagdtiger/Jp4 (but honestly you'll never be able to field a JT in a legit 1v1). It out-DPS's the Jp4 by a lot, and can self repair meaning you can easily "attrition" it off the field. They're also in the same tier as the normal Sherman and the M8A1, making them a lot more viable to field as compared to Su85s (which are utter trash in 1v1) and Panthers (too expensive to get to in 1v1).

I feel like I'm rambling, maybe putting it in list form will be better.

The M36 Jackson has 60 range. #Winning
It has a turret.
It does 240 damage per shot.
It is more mobile than any other TD (maybe the Panther is slightly more mobile? But we already know Panthers are terrible for their cost.)
It is located in a great place in terms of tech (unlike the SU85 and the Panther).
It can repair itself.

I just don't see how you can lose M36 Jacksons to anything other than a JT or Elefant - which never show up in 1v1s. Pak43 would be a big issue I guess (I do love me some PaK43s). You can out maneuver schrecks and AT guns, you out-range the P4, Stug, Ostwind, Puma, KT, Tiger, Panther, Bruumbar.

They're super mobile, unflankable tank killing machines that self repair and throw out 240 damage per shot... not really sure what else you could want from your TD. The health is somewhat irrelevant because you have so much mobility and repair power.

- The repairing is a nice bonus, but other than that I don't find them fast, at least not faster than a sherman. Not sure on this matter though.

- The 60 range may not always be used though, like in city maps. Every countershot is very dangerous for the Jackson. Aren't panzershrecks quite good against them? The Jackson doesn't have an answer to that and dies in 4 panzershreck shots.

- A bit off-topic, but IIRC the Jackson has a building time of 90 SECONDS. Why is this? (sherman and panther have 60, only KT has 90 IIRC)

I agree with CieZ to a degree. In the hands of a good player Jacksons are very fearsome indeed. You don't need any other AT tool when you get them really, save maybe for At nades.

I do think they're not as absurdly overpowered as he makes them out to be. Against a German player who slowly advances his panzers without support, yeah they will tear shit up. But on the offensive or against an AT gun screen they struggle.

And Relic, please fix their damn target priority. Tank destroyers have no business targeting a lone pioneer over a half-destroyed Panther.

Nerf early game, buff late game.

+1 Problem late game is if you can't mass enough tanks or have decent off map/arty hit the field you're gonna get rolled by vet 4-5 falls/fusiliers/obersoldaton combined with vetted armor consisting of either a puma or jadgpanzer to p2 , sturmtiger or panther etc..... I wouldn't mind a change to early game US as long as late game is changed adequately as well to balance the faction out.

I agree with CieZ to a degree. In the hands of a good player Jacksons are very fearsome indeed. You don't need any other AT tool when you get them really, save maybe for At nades.

I do think they're not as absurdly overpowered as he makes them out to be. Against a German player who slowly advances his panzers without support, yeah they will tear shit up. But on the offensive or against an AT gun screen they struggle.

And Relic, please fix their damn target priority. Tank destroyers have no business targeting a lone pioneer over a half-destroyed Panther.

Lol yeah their target priority is AWFUL. Makes me so mad sometimes. At least they have hold fire now... but still... you'd think a dedicated TD would you know... shoot at tanks or something.

They're the best non-doctrinal tank destroyer by a long shot. In my book, by definition, that makes them over powered - at least in the tank destroyer department. They're not game breaking like the old ISU 152 or Sniper M3s or original 251 FHT was, but yeah. I guess I should clarify. Jacksons do not insta-win you the game with how good they are, but no tank destroyer outside of the Elefant and JT can match them in terms of raw AT power, which is why I consider them to be OP. (In a perfect world each TD would have strengths/weaknesses and be around the same powerlevel - asymmetrically).

I'm totally in favor of an early game nerf to USF with a proper late game adjustment. I hate the "meta" of any faction being pressed to win early, or getting free wins late game. I'd much rather see each faction have equal chances at all stages of the game.

the jackson is a perfect example of a high skill unit. They are difficult to use well but have great potential.

by comparison I think the su-85 is a far more forgiving unit to use.

I'm totally in favor of an early game nerf to USF with a proper late game adjustment. I hate the "meta" of any faction being pressed to win early, or getting free wins late game. I'd much rather see each faction have equal chances at all stages of the game.

But what can actually be done to make the late game better. I wouldn't say their tanks are underperforming. They just lack good spearhead units. Maybe things would get better once or if we ever get the jumbo or pershing.

Buffs to the smoke on the sherman, maybe make the bazooka better or at nade more reliable?

I would like to see the panther have the AI of the P4, and a non-doc jumbo sherman w/ 76mm gun.

Lol yeah their target priority is AWFUL. Makes me so mad sometimes. At least they have hold fire now... but still... you'd think a dedicated TD would you know... shoot at tanks or something.

''Commander, we got the enemy Tiger's flank in our sights, aligning gun for kill sho-''

''STOP. Target that guy over there instead.''

''Uh, commander we're a tank destroyer and-"

''Silence! I like his hat. It's a nice hat. Kill him so that I can grab it!''


As for the other TDs, I'm pretty sure it's them needing a buff that's the problem, not Jackson needing a nerf except maybe a slight speed nerf or manpower cost increase. I mean, who ever builds SU-85s, or Jagdpanzers, or (lol) StuGs? There's got to be a reason. Methinks it's because they underperform.

Stugs can be really deadly against Soviet T3, especially when used to back up a P4. They're not as good vs USF though. Jackson just demolishes them. Luckily the PaK40 is extremely good vs USF.

But yeah Su85 and Panther could use some love. I'm not sure about the Jp4. It seems to perform much better than the SU85, I think a lot of it has to do with the insane frontal armor - and it gets some amazing vet stuffs.

As for improving USF late game... hmm... maybe tone down rifles a bit at vet 0 but improve their vet bonuses to compensate. Essentially they'd be worse than they are now at vet 0 but once they get to vet 3, they'd be stronger than current vet 3 rifles are. I think this could go a long way in helping Ost and OKW vs USF early pressure, while also making USF more competitive with the late game infantry of both factions. I don't have any specific numbers but it is a general idea.

I don't know if the US fielded any AT guns bigger than the 57mm but adding a doctrinal "heavy" AT gun might be interesting, if there's a historical precedent for it. I'd also lower the cost, or improve the performance of the pack howi. It takes too long to pay off from my experience in 1v1s, although this would risk breaking team games... maybe...

A doctrinal USF heavy tank could be nice. T-28 or Jumbo maybe? I dunno, I'm not super knowledgeable on the history side of things so maybe some one else can suggest some better heavy tank options.

Overall I think lethality is actually slightly too high across the board right now. Obers, Fallshirms, BARS, M1919A6 and some tanks being the biggest offenders. I'd like to see the power level of the game drop a bit - especially mid/late (but keep USF tanks the same) and see where things stand. Nerfing USF early game, while nerfing everyone else's late game would effectively buff the USF in cases of a long game.

Stugs can be really deadly against Soviet T3, especially when used to back up a P4. They're not as good vs USF though. Jackson just demolishes them. Luckily the PaK40 is extremely good vs USF.

But yeah Su85 and Panther could use some love. I'm not sure about the Jp4. It seems to perform much better than the SU85, I think a lot of it has to do with the insane frontal armor - and it gets some amazing vet stuffs.

As for improving USF late game... hmm... maybe tone down rifles a bit at vet 0 but improve their vet bonuses to compensate. Essentially they'd be worse than they are now at vet 0 but once they get to vet 3, they'd be stronger than current vet 3 rifles are. I think this could go a long way in helping Ost and OKW vs USF early pressure, while also making USF more competitive with the late game infantry of both factions. I don't have any specific numbers but it is a general idea.

I don't know if the US fielded any AT guns bigger than the 57mm but adding a doctrinal "heavy" AT gun might be interesting, if there's a historical precedent for it. I'd also lower the cost, or improve the performance of the pack howi. It takes too long to pay off from my experience in 1v1s, although this would risk breaking team games... maybe...

A doctrinal USF heavy tank could be nice. T-28 or Jumbo maybe? I dunno, I'm not super knowledgeable on the history side of things so maybe some one else can suggest some better heavy tank options.

Overall I think lethality is actually slightly too high across the board right now. Obers, Fallshirms, BARS, M1919A6 and some tanks being the biggest offenders. I'd like to see the power level of the game drop a bit - especially mid/late (but keep USF tanks the same) and see where things stand. Nerfing USF early game, while nerfing everyone else's late game would effectively buff the USF in cases of a long game.

The US had the M5 3-inch gun:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3in_Gun_M5
Other then that there was 90mm AA gun.

As for heavies the the US had none. They had a few projects with the M6, T95 and the T29, but none went into mass production. Their best tank was the pershing which was really only a advanced medium tank more like the Panther and only 20 saw combat.

USF late game fucking sucks balls. USF early game is extremely strong. M1919s are a joke.

Buff late game.

Nerf early game.

Fix M1919s.

Right now the only time USF has a late game is with Easy Eights. It's even worse in team games where they regularly have to deal with super heavies and most of their shit either misses, gets 2-shotted or doesn't pen.

...

Overall I think lethality is actually slightly too high across the board right now. Obers, Fallshirms, BARS, M1919A6 and some tanks being the biggest offenders. I'd like to see the power level of the game drop a bit - especially mid/late (but keep USF tanks the same) and see where things stand. Nerfing USF early game, while nerfing everyone else's late game would effectively buff the USF in cases of a long game.

+1. and with vet, especially the ability to get up to vet 5 with OKW,dps of some units go off the chart in late game. not to mention that forward retreating point makes getting vet so much quicker and easier.

a bit off topic but i think vet comes too easily in this game. vet 1 i understand, because you don't get combat bonuses(generally). but even vet 2 and 3 come way too easily.

I don't find the US tank destroyers very fast with all the pumas with smoke dischargers running circles around them. IMO they need better acceleration. They also have pretty bad pathfinding and terrible target priority.

USF late game fucking sucks balls. USF early game is extremely strong. M1919s are a joke.

Buff late game.

Nerf early game.

Fix M1919s.

Right now the only time USF has a late game is with Easy Eights. It's even worse in team games where they regularly have to deal with super heavies and most of their shit either misses, gets 2-shotted or doesn't pen.

Really not sure what game you're playing (or maybe you don't play because you constantly clutter the forum with overly biased and ignorant posts?)...

First of all M1919A6 (defensive stance activated) beat every single infantry squad in the game by a mile. There is no infantry counter to this and OKW lack AI vehicles. Even without defensive stance they have an amazingly strong weapon profile and put out suppression. They're, by far, the best weapon upgrade in the game. Oh and if you don't feel like going the infantry commander you can get them on Paratroopers - which are arguably the best infantry squad in the game. (6 men, self healing, M1919s, reinforce on the field, spammable suppression fire, etc etc). I'd be shocked if defensive stance and/or M1919s do not get heavily nerfed - but currently USF absolutely dominates every other faction in terms of infantry.

M36 Jackson is an absolute beast. It stomps the Puma, Luchs, and KT while still doing great against the Panther and the Jp4. It does not fear schrecks because of its mobility. As for against Ostheer, it completely hard counters everything in T3. Still beats Panthers (which are not at all viable to field in a 1v1 as Ost) and is extremely solid against Tigers. I will admit that Jacksons have to be afraid of the Pak40, which - when combined with Tigers - probably gives Ost the advantage in the late game.

HE Sherman shells are crazy good - making the combination of M36 + Sherman a nightmare to deal with as OKW. Combined with the mounted MG on the Sherman I think it is probably the best AI tank in the game (maybe the Ostwind or KV8 get this honor? - but they're super weak to other tanks - the Sherman is not).

M8A1 is also really good, I prefer the Sherman but plenty of top players combine the M8 with Jacksons and other AT to great effect.

As I've mentioned earlier in the post USF has the best forward retreat mechanic in the form of the Major + Ambulance, and has a huge advantage over everyone in terms of repair speed. RET repair faster than all other engineers except for Sturms with the minesweeper package, and when combined with tank crews the USF can repair their tanks almost instantly.

Anyways, I feel like I'm really repeating myself here - and given how long this post has become I doubt most people will read it in its entirety. But think about this for a minute. OMGPOP is 48-1 as USF. Sure he's an amazingly good player but his ONLY loss so far came at the hands of an exploit. As far as I go - I'm 10 wins 2 losses as USF (while not playing Lt + M15) - my only two losses being to Ostheer (and both losses at the hands of Tigers).

Right now Ost and USF are definitely the top two factions. I give the slight edge to Ost because a late game of 3-4 Grens, 2 MG42, 2 PAK and Tigers is probably unbeatable. USF *can* win against Ostheer thanks to their early game prowess and they're significantly stronger than OKW and Soviet.

To put it simply Ost > USF >>> Sov >> OKW.

USF late game is FAAAAAAAAR from "fucking sucks balls"

I think the biggest weakness the Jackson has atm is fucked up pathfinding, bugged targeting and the habit that it charges in when you right click on an enemy tank

I think the current lack of US lategame comes along with the sudden explosion of okws strenght esp. in teamgames. If you ever met 2 okw blobs in minsk in the mdidle and try to hold ground you will know. Even your vet3 rifles will melt to that.

I don't think that US late has any kind of problems vs Ost/Wher late game. Because a usual combined arms play is still strong.

Well US vs Ost early is another thing...

I think the US Forces really suffer from the lack of anything remotely durable. The Jackson is a beast in terms of damage output, but it's a fairly fragile unit and doesn't really have anything that can be used to draw fire for it except for the 105 Bulldozer, which is doctrinal and not particularly heavily armoured by German and Soviet standards.

I really hope we at least see the Jumbo in a future commander, as that would give the faction a proper meatshield to deploy ahead of your Jacksons and 57mm AT guns.

I find the USF very map dependant. On closed maps even OKW can defeat them with ease, as they cannot use the M36 and other units to their max potencial. As mentioned before they alos lack of "damage absorbable" units like the soviet heavies and all of their units are too fragile.

And because of this I think it's:

Ostheer > Soviet > USF > OKW.

Both OKW and USF shouldn't be too map dependant and require changes both in their late and early-game.

Really not sure what game you're playing (or maybe you don't play because you constantly clutter the forum with overly biased and ignorant posts?)...

First of all M1919A6 (defensive stance activated) beat every single infantry squad in the game by a mile. There is no infantry counter to this and OKW lack AI vehicles. Even without defensive stance they have an amazingly strong weapon profile and put out suppression. They're, by far, the best weapon upgrade in the game. Oh and if you don't feel like going the infantry commander you can get them on Paratroopers - which are arguably the best infantry squad in the game. (6 men, self healing, M1919s, reinforce on the field, spammable suppression fire, etc etc). I'd be shocked if defensive stance and/or M1919s do not get heavily nerfed - but currently USF absolutely dominates every other faction in terms of infantry.

Yes. Facing it is a fucking joke.

M36 Jackson is an absolute beast. It stomps the Puma, Luchs, and KT while still doing great against the Panther and the Jp4. It does not fear schrecks because of its mobility. As for against Ostheer, it completely hard counters everything in T3. Still beats Panthers (which are not at all viable to field in a 1v1 as Ost) and is extremely solid against Tigers. I will admit that Jacksons have to be afraid of the Pak40, which - when combined with Tigers - probably gives Ost the advantage in the late game.

It would want to roflstomp the Puma and Luchs, it's a fucking expensive tank and they're light vehicles. I think the Puma is terribad as well, its pathing is worse than AIDS. As for everything else? I don't know what pipe you're smoking. It will get fucking wrecked by a Panther, JP4, KT or even a PzIV. It can't take a fucking hit. Schreks also fuck it. Its armour is made out of paper.

Which would be fine if the maps were designed worth a shit when it came to vehicle usage and flanking ability. The only maps in the game that are close to that are the ported CoH1 maps.

M8A1 is also really good, I prefer the Sherman but plenty of top players combine the M8 with Jacksons and other AT to great effect.

The M8A1 is a mid game light vehicle, which is sad because it's better than the fucking Sherman. Earlier shock value, can handle light vehicles, rapes infantry, a well microed M8 is the flat out superior choice to a HE Sherman.

As I've mentioned earlier in the post USF has the best forward retreat mechanic in the form of the Major + Ambulance, and has a huge advantage over everyone in terms of repair speed. RET repair faster than all other engineers except for Sturms with the minesweeper package, and when combined with tank crews the USF can repair their tanks almost instantly.

The forward retreat is not something to brag about. The Major is weak as fuck and he's Tier 4. OKW get that the first thing in the game. For being nearly three times more expensive with 1/10 the durability, I think having a mobile base of Med Truck + Major is quite alright. It's something I will use almost every game, but it's the most expensive forward base option and by FAR the most vulnerable(Excluding USF Infantry Co. arty strike BS). Doesn't help that Med Truck has the worst profile and worst pathing in the game for what it is.

Right now Ost and USF are definitely the top two factions. I give the slight edge to Ost because a late game of 3-4 Grens, 2 MG42, 2 PAK and Tigers is probably unbeatable. USF *can* win against Ostheer thanks to their early game prowess and they're significantly stronger than OKW and Soviet.

In 1v1 I definitely feel like USF is the top faction. That doesn't come from their late game strength, it comes from their overwhelmingly strong early and mid game, which compensates for how shit their late game units are.