What stops you actually from putting shocks into a M3 and wipe them on retreat
You deserve a medal.
Official Obersoldaten OP Thread
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3 Jul 2014, 08:47 AM
#201
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
You deserve a medal.
3 Jul 2014, 09:41 AM
#202
Posts: 322
I almost exclusively play 2v2. And yes it's certainly easier in the early game than it is in the late game. But that in itself is something I feel is terrible design - every faction should be viable at all stages of the game. As to "easily kill every OKW infantry"? No, that would be ludicrous to expect me to wipe the whole enemy player. Unless you just meant that each kind of unit can be dealt with, which is true.
Well I'm the same as you mostly play 2vs2 but lately I also do play 1vs1.
I also feel the same like you about the terrible design: They should just make the Volksgrenadier better, be the same as Grenadier than it will be ok to nerf down Ober.
As a OKW player now I got no choice but to mess around and wait until Ober come out because simply all of my infantry is just weak and costly. At the moment I rather have a costly Ober but can surely cut down enemy then having volks that need to depend on using grenade.
What about you guys ? Do you feel the same that they should buff the Volks then weaker the Ober a bit or keep it the same right now ? Volks is just something to carry panzersherck, throw grenade and die so sturmpiooner can safely attack and wait for Ober ?
3 Jul 2014, 10:06 AM
#203
Posts: 747
Well I'm the same as you mostly play 2vs2 but lately I also do play 1vs1.
I also feel the same like you about the terrible design: They should just make the Volksgrenadier better, be the same as Grenadier than it will be ok to nerf down Ober.
As a OKW player now I got no choice but to mess around and wait until Ober come out because simply all of my infantry is just weak and costly. At the moment I rather have a costly Ober but can surely cut down enemy then having volks that need to depend on using grenade.
What about you guys ? Do you feel the same that they should buff the Volks then weaker the Ober a bit or keep it the same right now ? Volks is just something to carry panzersherck, throw grenade and die so sturmpiooner can safely attack and wait for Ober ?
I actually do quite fine with the Volks/Pio combo and only use Obers when going Specialforces Commander, since there's no point in going for Obersoldaten when you got Falls or Panzerfüsiliers.
Maybe Volks could use a slight long range dmg buff but I first wan't to see how the volley fire nerf affects the early game before I'd suggest such a change.
3 Jul 2014, 12:09 PM
#204
Posts: 1026
Raging again after a loss. Two games in a row where the exact same thing happened - we played well early and mid game, obliterating many squads, but they survive to endgame, and obsersoldaten just keep getting created, heavy tanks start to come out, and we cannot compete nomatter what we do.
3 Jul 2014, 12:36 PM
#205
Posts: 627
Welcome to obsesoldaten. The only infantry in the game that literally demands you invest tanks or get lucky with indirects to deal with.
And they only cost manpower.
Enjoy spending MP alone to mop up huge amounts more MP than you spend on them, and spending all your fuel on heavy anti-tank while your opponent has to invest in vehicles that come with infantry killing power just to deal with your Soldaten.
A moving double-MG42 spewing armoured and hard to hit unit with extra accuracy at your infantry as it runs away. Great idea, relic.
And they only cost manpower.
Enjoy spending MP alone to mop up huge amounts more MP than you spend on them, and spending all your fuel on heavy anti-tank while your opponent has to invest in vehicles that come with infantry killing power just to deal with your Soldaten.
A moving double-MG42 spewing armoured and hard to hit unit with extra accuracy at your infantry as it runs away. Great idea, relic.
3 Jul 2014, 13:22 PM
#206
Posts: 246
Raging again after a loss. Two games in a row where the exact same thing happened - we played well early and mid game, obliterating many squads, but they survive to endgame, and obsersoldaten just keep getting created, heavy tanks start to come out, and we cannot compete nomatter what we do.
Maybe you were better at midgame because they were floating res for the heavy tanks? (just a guess, not an insult)
3 Jul 2014, 13:53 PM
#207
Posts: 665
I think the problem is more of a lategame (and probably team game too) one. Sure, vet 3 rifles with BARs or vetted Shocks can stand up to them if you're lucky, but attrition is a thing, especially given the stupid retreat modifier. Almost all allied infantry needs vet or upgrades to be up to par; Obers are already very powerful right out of the game and only become more so as they gain vet.
I also reject the notion that they're hard counter to all infantry similar to AT guns. First, AT guns are easy to kill, second some tanks are very good vs infantry and can stand up to them, third AT guns actually require micro against a half decent opponent. Obers you can simply make them stand there or plop them in cover and they will slaughter anything but their dedicated counters.
I'd remove the awful retreat modifier and either lower their durability, damage, or increase price. They don't need a massive nerfbat, but they need to be weaker out of the gate, and the retreat modifier is just removing an horrible idea.
I also reject the notion that they're hard counter to all infantry similar to AT guns. First, AT guns are easy to kill, second some tanks are very good vs infantry and can stand up to them, third AT guns actually require micro against a half decent opponent. Obers you can simply make them stand there or plop them in cover and they will slaughter anything but their dedicated counters.
I'd remove the awful retreat modifier and either lower their durability, damage, or increase price. They don't need a massive nerfbat, but they need to be weaker out of the gate, and the retreat modifier is just removing an horrible idea.
3 Jul 2014, 14:48 PM
#208
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
Right now in 2vs2, Ober is my favorite unit as OKW. With a nice Puma support, this unit can almost clear out the field.
3 of them can take down enemy MG no sweat and even Rifleman Vet 3 with M1918 LMG have a hard time against Ober.
Now that I ain't gonna say " OMG OP " and bullshit but consider this unit come in late and no anti tank power, this is fair for them when the US could have BAR, M1918 and Rus can have Shock or Guards with DP wayyyy ealier then OKW.
This unit is right where it should be, no need to tweak anything.
Allies players might want to use combine arms force like Rifleman + HMG .50cal / Shock/Guards with MG to deal with them. if you think about blob against blob then think again.
If you fail to take down OKW fast then it's your problem.
Thats the big problem. Youre almost completely screwed over if you let OKW get into the lategame. Ofcourse, OKW should have some form of a lategame advantage and be strongest in that part, but its not fair to say that something isnt overperforming because it comes so late and you failed to kill your enemy before the units arrival.
Thought of 2 equally skilled players? Thats usually the prerequisite for long games. Would you like a game where one factions automatically wins past the, lets say, 25 min mark? No?
Its like a ticking timebomb. Dont let factions autowin at a certain stage of the game just for the sake of it. Make it perfectly possible to win at every stage of the game with every faction.
That sounds more like proper balance to me.
servant to the vet 5 königskübel
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
3 Jul 2014, 17:00 PM
#209
Posts: 65
O there are people on here that will not rest until OKW is as nerfed as poor OST.
To be perfectly honest, most of the people attacking Obers are the same ones who used to defend Shocks.
It really just seems like certain players are upset that Shocks are no longer considered the most elite unit in the game despite the fact that the OKW army essence stated that the force was based around elite units.
Personally, I think they're fine. They're deceptively squishy until Vet 3 and I generally only hit Vet 3 with them in a third of my games when I'm playing OKW.
When I use smoke and Shocks it's insane how fast they drop.
But enough logic.
3 Jul 2014, 17:29 PM
#210
Posts: 165
.... but there were no Obersoldaten in WWII the way Relic is depicting them ... This is la-la land. Their were Russian shock troops.
Other German elite troops that were 'real' should get buffs and take this garbage out of the game if the plan is to represent WWII in a game. Otherwise bring on the zombies, robots and monsters.
Other German elite troops that were 'real' should get buffs and take this garbage out of the game if the plan is to represent WWII in a game. Otherwise bring on the zombies, robots and monsters.
3 Jul 2014, 17:41 PM
#211
Posts: 627
To be perfectly honest, most of the people attacking Obers are the same ones who used to defend Shocks.
It really just seems like certain players are upset that Shocks are no longer considered the most elite unit in the game despite the fact that the OKW army essence stated that the force was based around elite units.
No, the problem is that Obersoldaten have the damage output of shock troops that increases at long range with the MG34, allowing them to stay in cover rather than have to close in to do their massive damage. And they are a long range high damage DPS unit that also has a decent dual set of armour. And they also do more damage to units on retreat. Their assault rifles have cover denying bonuses.
Shocks have none of these advantages. They only work in close quarters, not from max range. They don't get retreat bonuses. They're doctrinal and deny you guard riflemen.
Obers are shock troops that work from max range and have a bunch of needless extra bonuses and barely cost more than shock troops do.
3 Jul 2014, 18:16 PM
#212
Posts: 747
No, the problem is that Obersoldaten have the damage output of shock troops that increases at long range with the MG34, allowing them to stay in cover rather than have to close in to do their massive damage. And they are a long range high damage DPS unit that also has a decent dual set of armour. And they also do more damage to units on retreat. Their assault rifles have cover denying bonuses.
Shocks have none of these advantages. They only work in close quarters, not from max range. They don't get retreat bonuses. They're doctrinal and deny you guard riflemen.
Obers are shock troops that work from max range and have a bunch of needless extra bonuses and barely cost more than shock troops do.
While I agree that the modifier on retreating troops is crap you still have to keep in mind that shocks require no tech, have no buildtime and are available much earlier.
The IR stgw might need some tweaking too.
3 Jul 2014, 18:22 PM
#213
Posts: 65
.... but there were no Obersoldaten in WWII the way Relic is depicting them ... This is la-la land. Their were Russian shock troops.
Other German elite troops that were 'real' should get buffs and take this garbage out of the game if the plan is to represent WWII in a game. Otherwise bring on the zombies, robots and monsters.
I'm sure Relic wouldn't encounter any public relation problems renaming them to Schutzstaffel...
If we REALLY want to throw around the realism moniker, this game is going to go through some sweeping massive changes which I won't get into because it'll just incite angry posts fueled by bent pride.
3 Jul 2014, 18:23 PM
#214
Posts: 4928
.... but there were no Obersoldaten in WWII the way Relic is depicting them ... This is la-la land. Their were Russian shock troops.Conscripts didn't exist as a real unit, conscripted soldiers were assigned to rifle divisions alongside all other recruits. Guards didn't exist as a unit type, rather "Guard" was an honorary title assigned to divisions who had distinguished themselves in battle, they were considered to have "elite" status, but that didn't necessarily mean they were comprised of elite troops. Shock Troops as they are in the game were not a unit either, rather they were called "Assault Engineers" and were tasked with using explosives to clear obstacles and defenses ahead of the attacking force. Contrary to CoH2's commander options, Shock Troops were often part of Guard Armies.
Other German elite troops that were 'real' should get buffs and take this garbage out of the game if the plan is to represent WWII in a game.
Otherwise bring on the zombies, robots and monsters.You mean Zombies Monsters Robots. Really fun game though. I've been playing it a lot lately, it's one of the few games my comp can handle until I get a fully functioning graphics card.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
3 Jul 2014, 18:25 PM
#215
Posts: 65
No, the problem is that Obersoldaten have the damage output of shock troops that increases at long range with the MG34, allowing them to stay in cover rather than have to close in to do their massive damage. And they are a long range high damage DPS unit that also has a decent dual set of armour. And they also do more damage to units on retreat. Their assault rifles have cover denying bonuses.
Shocks have none of these advantages. They only work in close quarters, not from max range. They don't get retreat bonuses. They're doctrinal and deny you guard riflemen.
Obers are shock troops that work from max range and have a bunch of needless extra bonuses and barely cost more than shock troops do.
Yes, but Obersoldaten are not Shock Troops. The only comparison I made is that it's the same people spewing glaring hypocrisy.
You can't compare the two units otherwise because you shouldn't. As Gustav pointed out above, there are pros and cons.
Yes, they are an effective unit, because they absolutely need to be. And they are by no means this god squad everyone is making them out to be.
3 Jul 2014, 18:28 PM
#216
Posts: 184
I'm sure Relic wouldn't encounter any public relation problems renaming them to Schutzstaffel...
Yeah, this. Ober Soldaten seems to be SS with another name. I'm surprised they just didn't go with the good ol' 'Stormtroopers' name though.
3 Jul 2014, 18:37 PM
#217
Posts: 1702
the entire OKW makes zero sense.
Technologically sophisticated - okay. Sure .
Resuorce starved - what? Germans made more tanks in 1944 than they did in any other year, for example in 1944 germans made 27000 AFV and soviets made 28000. However, the quality of their armor did decrease during 44-45, but that is also not reflected in game. King tigers get fantasy-nigh inpenetrable armor.
Battle hardened- What? - I'm sorry, but by 44 all german veterans were eighter dead or horribly injured and thus unable to fight. German infantry quality in 44 was worse than it was in 43, 42, 41 and so on.
Technologically sophisticated - okay. Sure .
Resuorce starved - what? Germans made more tanks in 1944 than they did in any other year, for example in 1944 germans made 27000 AFV and soviets made 28000. However, the quality of their armor did decrease during 44-45, but that is also not reflected in game. King tigers get fantasy-nigh inpenetrable armor.
Battle hardened- What? - I'm sorry, but by 44 all german veterans were eighter dead or horribly injured and thus unable to fight. German infantry quality in 44 was worse than it was in 43, 42, 41 and so on.
3 Jul 2014, 19:33 PM
#218
Posts: 4928
However, the quality of their armor did decrease during 44-45, but that is also not reflected in game. King tigers get fantasy-nigh inpenetrable armor.
Actually it's kind of represented, with the Oberkommando Panzer IV Ausf. J having 20 less armour than the Wehrmacht Panzer IV Ausf. G.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
3 Jul 2014, 20:32 PM
#219
Posts: 1130
the entire OKW makes zero sense.
Technologically sophisticated - okay. Sure .
Resuorce starved - what? Germans made more tanks in 1944 than they did in any other year, for example in 1944 germans made 27000 AFV and soviets made 28000. However, the quality of their armor did decrease during 44-45, but that is also not reflected in game. King tigers get fantasy-nigh inpenetrable armor.
Battle hardened- What? - I'm sorry, but by 44 all german veterans were eighter dead or horribly injured and thus unable to fight. German infantry quality in 44 was worse than it was in 43, 42, 41 and so on.
Steel production was not universally bad KT"S that had the good quality steel where very difficult to take out and most where either abandoned because of fuel shortage or mechanical failure
horrida flamma bella
3 Jul 2014, 21:26 PM
#220
Posts: 1571
The 'shock troops' and close combat troops of the Germans were their 'sturmpioneer battalions' (in the game). These were either divisional or from independent battalions from the German reserve forces. The two best assault battalions of a German infantry division were generally their sturmpioneer battalion and their recon battalion (later renamed 'fusilier' in many instances).
The line battalions held the frontage of the division while the sturmpioneers and recon battalion were held as an assault reserve. (this was not always the case, if the front needed manning).
The assault engineers worked with and were not separated from other formations like penal companies and battalions did for the soviets.
In an informal manner, assault teams could be organized from the grenadiers.
The line battalions held the frontage of the division while the sturmpioneers and recon battalion were held as an assault reserve. (this was not always the case, if the front needed manning).
The assault engineers worked with and were not separated from other formations like penal companies and battalions did for the soviets.
In an informal manner, assault teams could be organized from the grenadiers.
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