Panther overnerfed

The Panther was at a better state in Coh1. There you where punished for using it wrong and rewarded for using it right. A lot of shots bounced from its front back then. Now either way your Panther will go down. No way could two Shermans park in front of the Panther and defeat it in Coh1. In Coh2 though this can happen. And that´s dumb.

Now that Blitz is useless the survivability needs to go up.

in coh1 it ws really a heavy tank (in terms of preformance) in coh2 its not a heavy tank but really a medium tank or atlest it preforms like one though it has more armor.

I like the current stats of the Panther. The old stats were awful. Just cut the fuel price, and it's a go.

IMO the ISU, Elefant, and Panther will see changes next patch.

The Panther was at a better state in Coh1. There you where punished for using it wrong and rewarded for using it right. A lot of shots bounced from its front back then. Now either way your Panther will go down. No way could two Shermans park in front of the Panther and defeat it in Coh1. In Coh2 though this can happen. And that´s dumb.

Now that Blitz is useless the survivability needs to go up.

and i thought we are talking about coh2 panther...

panther still has very good frontal armor and high health without being better than heavy tanks. it just needs price drop either indirectly or directly.

Its not regarding to Panther underperforming. Its the matter of Teching vs Call-in.

I'd argue the Panther under-performs a bit even then, in a direct comparison.

T-34/85:
400 Manpower
140 Fuel
800 Health
160 Armour Front
080 Armour Rear


Panther:
490 Manpower
175 Fuel
800 Health
270 Armour Front
110 Armour Rear


Guns: While the Panther does have overall better Machine Guns, the main gun is extremely unlikely to harm Infantry. The T-34/85's gun is much more accurate against Infantry and has a much larger AOE.

85mm Tank Gun
160/140/120 Penetration
05 Scatter (favorable)
40 Range

75mm Tank Gun
240/???/??? Penetration
10 Scatter (awful)
50 Range


T-34/85 Left, Panther Right, Grenadier for Scale:


Larger circle is total AOE, smaller circle is one-hit kill AOE. This picture does not show accuracy, which is much less on the Panther.

^You've got panther penetration horribly wrong and low.

It goes as far as 240.

^You've got panther penetration horribly wrong and low.

It goes as far as 240.

Coh2Stats has the wrong numbers listed then.

And so it does. The Pen was buffed. It was bugged before.

Coh2Stats has the wrong numbers listed then.

It sure does.
Look up to see when it was updated last time.

Player card, please. Now.

Did you fail to note the part where I replaced 'German' with 'Soviet', thus implying that BOTH sides say the same thing, and thus taking neither side? Jesus -.-*

in coh1 it ws really a heavy tank (in terms of preformance) in coh2 its not a heavy tank but really a medium tank or atlest it preforms like one though it has more armor.

Ok, then let's make it's price suited for a medium, considering also the "phases" costs for german tiers.

I'd argue the Panther under-performs a bit even then, in a direct comparison.

T-34/85:
400 Manpower
140 Fuel
800 Health
160 Armour Front
080 Armour Rear


Panther:
490 Manpower
175 Fuel
800 Health
270 Armour Front
110 Armour Rear


Guns: While the Panther does have overall better Machine Guns, the main gun is extremely unlikely to harm Infantry. The T-34/85's gun is much more accurate against Infantry and has a much larger AOE.

85mm Tank Gun
160/140/120 Penetration
05 Scatter (favorable)
40 Range

75mm Tank Gun
240/???/??? Penetration
10 Scatter (awful)
50 Range


T-34/85 Left, Panther Right, Grenadier for Scale:


Larger circle is total AOE, smaller circle is one-hit kill AOE. This picture does not show accuracy, which is much less on the Panther.

Nice Comparison.
You should also mention the teching cost that is required to field the panther.

im not sure why people are calling for stat cost to be factored, then REFUSE to understand that the problem has got nothing to do with the stats, its call ins vs teching.

stats wise, panther is still a superior but more specialized unit. at frontal engagements, the best chance for a t34/85 is a pretty okay, 60% chance to penetrate and do damage. the panther beats t34/85 reliably with more range, more armour and a better gun. long story short, its still an effective anti tank platform.

however, the problem here is not that panthers are total shit at their job, the problem is that t4 is inaccessible being prohibitively expensive and players can skip teching cost and use call ins making call ins undoubtedly cheaper and cost effective. a german player can stay with heavy t2, dont tech for bp3 or 4, stall for tigers effectively and still have an end game unit, without any teching cost. not only that, they can bring them out the second tigers are available, since teching cost are saved and spent on tigers. it is a simple and more effective form of resource usage.

similarly for soviets. fuck the su85, t34/85 is a more effective option. all the soviet player has to do is to build t2, use guards and hilariously crappy support weapons to carry the mid game, then once with 9cp, the t34/85 comes to break the line. there's no need to spend that resource on su85s, its just more effective with call ins.

so the point here is, dont focus on the symptoms, instead tackle the root of the problem.

, more armour and a better gun. long story short, its still an effective anti tank platform.

however, the problem here is not that panthers are total shit at their job, the problem is that t4 is inaccessible being prohibitively expensive and players can skip teching cost and use call ins making call ins undoubtedly cheaper and cost effective. a german player can stay with heavy t2, dont tech for bp3 or 4, stall for tigers effectively and still have an end game unit, without any teching cost. not only that, they can bring them out the second tigers are available, since teching cost are saved and spent on tigers. it is a simple and more effective form of resource usage.

similarly for soviets. fuck the su85, t34/85 is a more effective option. all the soviet player has to do is to build t2, use guards and hilariously crappy support weapons to carry the mid game, then once with 9cp, the t34/85 comes to break the line. there's no need to spend that resource on su85s, its just more effective with call ins.

True...

at frontal engagements, the best chance for a t34/85 is a pretty okay, 60% chance to penetrate and do damage.

Actually that´s also a problem. Two of three shots will go through the Panthers frontal armor. That´s weak. You should be able to avoid taking too much damage when keeping the frontal armor at the enemy. That rewards good usage of the Panther.

its a t34/85, not a t34/76, its acceptable.

160pen is the short range value i took to represent the best chance. if a t34/85 can get into short range of a panther and you do not have grenadiers to faust it or paks with their insane dps values to smack t34/85s stupid. that's not the unit's problem, its the player's lack of tactical deployment or unit composition.

realistically, t34/85 is gonna have 120pen at long, thats only ~44% chance. thats a pretty good chance for panthers to deflect shots.

reason is now, t34/85 comes in pairs(doubling the dps, though no issue here.), comes without tech cost (therefore cheap) and comes at 9cp which is usually slightly after panzer4.

Panther and brummbar are more like large team game units rather than 1 v 1 units now. (it takes a while for the techning cost to dissipate). 3 of these can be fielded instead of 2 tigers.

Am I the only one who even before the nerfs to the Panther (and german T4 in general with the rocketlauncher) never ever build/saw T4 anyways? Or are we talking about teamgames?

Actually that´s also a problem. Two of three shots will go through the Panthers frontal armor. That´s weak. You should be able to avoid taking too much damage when keeping the frontal armor at the enemy. That rewards good usage of the Panther.

No, this would make the Panther too strong because you cannot flank on every map (e.g. Lazur shit)

I think Relic have 2 options:

1) If the price stay the same , please buff the Anti infantry. I swear to god this tank ain't hit shit. And don't compare to a SU-85 cause that thing got lower fuel.

2 ) If they decrease the price, please lower " penetration " but increase the Anti-infantry a little more.

I mean make it into a German T34/85 Clone please: Russian T34/85mm kill tank so good and so does infantry.

Now I usually shit myself when I see T34/85mm moving up to me then an IS2.

Cause you guys fucked up the panzerwerfer and we ain't got any money for another brumbar.

And here's my rank : http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/viewBoard/2/steamid/76561198066812841

Also, can they reduced the reload time for panzerwerfer