Lets talk Pgrens.

Every infantry squad lost their 100% FOTM, why should the least range limited one get it back?

Because they need something to make them as cost effective as grens. also when you compare them to the 2 other cc troops you realise that other ones are better. assault grens are much cheaper have more durability and have sprint. shocks nearly have twice the durability of a pg squad not to mention smoke grenade to cover the advance.

the lack of smoke grenade , sprint and durability on top of that they are extremely expensive to reinforce makes the pg the weakest cc troops in the game. ther medium range firepower doesn't make up for that

What faction will you play in WF Katitof?

The same one I am playing right now.
OKW with ostseehr partner.
I would explain why, but I can't yet, so I will just say watch the trailer again and try to guess.
Americans do not appeal to me at all, just like they didn't appealed to me back in CoH1, even thou they ARE more interesting then CoH1 USA as you have seen on the stream.

@Cruzz
Exactly! That way he might actually have a chance winning something with his sad excuse of skill!

Because they need something to make them as cost effective as grens. also when you compare them to the 2 other cc troops you realise that other ones are better. assault grens are much cheaper have more durability and have sprint. shocks nearly have twice the durability of a pg squad not to mention smoke grenade to cover the advance.

the lack of smoke grenade , sprint and durability on top of that they are extremely expensive to reinforce makes the pg the weakest cc troops in the game. ther medium range firepower doesn't make up for that

They are NOT close combat troops any more!

I have had some great successes with them lately using them as the mid range unit. Wiping out 2 squads of Cons closing in on you - priceless.

Because they need something to make them as cost effective as grens. also when you compare them to the 2 other cc troops you realise that other ones are better. assault grens are much cheaper have more durability and have sprint. shocks nearly have twice the durability of a pg squad not to mention smoke grenade to cover the advance.

the lack of smoke grenade , sprint and durability on top of that they are extremely expensive to reinforce makes the pg the weakest cc troops in the game. ther medium range firepower doesn't make up for that

Pgrens are not meant to be CC troops. Yes they do lots of damage at close range, but you aren't meant to charge them into close range anymore.

Part of their built in cost is the flexibility they provide with the double shreck upgrade. Turning an early game anti-infantry unit into a mid game soft counter to armor is valuable, and needs to be taken into account when determining their cost.

I think that's already been taken into account with the 120 munis cost for schreks, which is a lot, certainly for Wehrmacht.

They are NOT close combat troops any more!

I have had some great successes with them lately using them as the mid range unit. Wiping out 2 squads of Cons closing in on you - priceless.

Thats because your still in the rookie level, high level players rarely make such stupid mistakes.

Pgrens are not meant to be CC troops. Yes they do lots of damage at close range, but you aren't meant to charge them into close range anymore.

Part of their built in cost is the flexibility they provide with the double shreck upgrade. Turning an early game anti-infantry unit into a mid game soft counter to armor is valuable, and needs to be taken into account when determining their cost.

If they are not CC troops then they are nothing more then very cost ineffective grens. so thx for clarifying how worthless they are. And im paying 120 ammo for the shreks and the pg lose half their AI power your argument is downright stupid.

double post

Well, since he will not play OKW, there is only one left

Considering he doesn't even play, that leaves 0 factions.

Simple: Increase the armor of PGs again.

Every sensible man in this forum agrees that PGs need some improvement (cost, armor, anything). So why argue anymore? Let the ones who think they need to stay that way to say whatever they want. It is only garbage anyway.
P.S. the most hilaroius argument is that they "are not supposed to be" close combat infantry. I tell you right now what they "are supposed to" or "should be" or what they were intended to be since the game's beginning. A better infantry than grenadiers, an assault infantry, customizable depending on what purpose you want to give them: AT or AI. They were designed as assault troops then Relic listened to all soviet whiners on these forums and made them useless and whithout purpose, a unit that is not worth building (as Panther, as PzWerfer, as german sniper and so on). Their performance justified their high price and their high reinforcement price. Now, you pay piles of resources for an underperforming unit. That's sad.

1. Pg carry assault rifles. These are not cc weapons. They are mid range weapons.

2. As long as you can double shrek them they are a balance issue if you buff their armor.

3. Pg spam with armor and shrecks is bad for the game.

4. They have a bundle nade and are for flanking not making the core of your army.

5. There are also doctorine that place them in armoured vehicles so you also have to consider that as well.

You have to think differently about pg. they are a flexible option for the ost. You only need one squad to supplement your core infantry maybe two.. They are used for tank hunting, at gun hunting or support weapon hunting. Use them in conjunction with superior german tanks and smoke. They are not for the human wave doctorine.......

The point is they don't perform all that well for their price. They're the most expensive infantry in the game yet their performance is average at best.

Conscripts are worth 40 per man, Grenadiers are 60, and Panzergrenadiers are worth 85 per man.

They perform great for me. Like I said you only need one squad of them to be effective. They damage a pg sqaud can inflict before losing two entities is huge. You have to use them with proper tactics.

If you try to make pg blobs then yes economically they will become unsound. However I have made pg blobs work with rapid infantry movement abilities as you can rape the entire field and retreat.

If you want to use pg blobs then try the german infantry doctorine. Use combination of rapid movement + officer + ostruppen reinforce to blob economically. You have to remember to include commanders doctorines when asking for buffs.

Also another hint is to load two pg squads into a half track and drive into the middle of infantry, support teams or behind at guns and then deploy to quickly annihilate anything that moves.

Like I said they are not human wave infantry. That is unless you have commanders that give them abilities to do the human wave.

1. Pg carry assault rifles. These are not cc weapons. They are mid range weapons.

Conscripts are effective in mid range and they not carry assault or automatic rifles. An assault rifle is best used BOTH mid range and close range. Automatic rifles are for close range, at most for mid range. Period.

2. As long as you can double shrek them they are a balance issue if you buff their armor.

As long as you won't do it, they will be useless for this purpose as long as they can be 2 shoted by a T34.

3. Pg spam with armor and shrecks is bad for the game.

Aham. And cons spam, maxim spam, M3 spam, sniper spam, etc... are not. Got it. Nice cat logic there.

4. They have a bundle nade and are for flanking not making the core of your army.

People who are talking about "fwanking" with germans are so amusing. Of course you can try to do it, but they are not necessarely designed for this. Let me give you an example of a flanking unit that is build with this purpose: Conscripts. Let me give you another example: assault grenadiers (the only german infantry designed for that purpose). If you can find yourself why, I'll give you a candy.

5. There are also doctorine that place them in armoured vehicles so you also have to consider that as well.

..just... Is this what you will base your attack and flanking on? The Pzgrens in HT? Have you ever used it?

Conscripts are effective in mid range and they not carry assault or automatic rifles. An assault rifle is best used BOTH mid range and close range. Automatic rifles are for close range, at most for mid range. Period.

Effective against what? Osttruppen? Because PGs will stomp them on all but far range in equal cover, grens are equal fight on mid range(no LMG obviously).
And weapons with low effective range are for close range. That means PPSH and MP40. StG44 are most effective at mid range, but also great at close range, thing is, they are NOT assault troops because they have no characteristics of assault troop, no sprint, no durability, no armor, everything screams they are NOT for assaults. I really wish I could add something more here but FU NDA.

they are NOT assault troops because they have no characteristics of assault troop, no sprint, no durability, no armor, everything screams they are NOT for assaults.

Yes Katitof, they don't have durability and armor, they don't have these things NO MORE. They had it in the past.
Actually since game was launched, their purpose was similar to pzgrens in vCOH - and those were very agressive units. PzGrens were supposed to be next level german infantry, issued from next level tier in middle game. Better armor, better rifles, higher cost, customizable in such extent that they won't be OP. If they gain 2 schrecks, their AI abilities will decrease dramaticaly. You could chose to keep them as AI and not give them schrecks. Nothing wrong with them, their cost and reinforcement cost was justifying their performance. What Relic did? They decrease the PzGren cost than got scared and nerfed them to oblivion instead increasing their cost back. The 25 march patch with that cover system improvement and everything did more harm than good because created a to high OP sensation about germans. Relic got scared and nerfed many things more than they sould have, in plus it forgot to rebalance some units after last patch changes. And one of these units are the PzGrens.

Related to NDA, no fears, me and other people on these forums are imagining that OKW will have some stormtroopen, or waffen ss or falschirmjager or all of these. I don't know shit about OKW but I suppose there will be such units.

But having this said, who the fuck will play Ostheer then, if OKW will offer you more reliable units? And if so, what would be Ostheer's chance against USA?

Effective against what? Osttruppen? Because PGs will stomp them on all but far range in equal cover, grens are equal fight on mid range(no LMG obviously).
And weapons with low effective range are for close range. That means PPSH and MP40. StG44 are most effective at mid range, but also great at close range, thing is, they are NOT assault troops because they have no characteristics of assault troop, no sprint, no durability, no armor, everything screams they are NOT for assaults. I really wish I could add something more here but FU NDA.

Anything beyond 15 m and the lmg gren easily surpasses the pg's. yes they have decent midrange for cc troops. but its horribly cost ineffective to use them at mid range. you will bleed a horrible amount of mp for it.

Thats because your still in the rookie level, high level players rarely make such stupid mistakes.

No. That's because I used them in a correct way.

Thats because your still in the rookie level, high level players rarely make such stupid mistakes.

I don't know dude, i've seen some very good players including stephen and hans using them to pretty good effect. While PG might be underperforming, they definately aren't useless. If PG is buffed, so should PPSH be buffed abit because right now the PPSH does barely any damage at ranges more than 8 meters. While the MP 40 is still pretty decent at 12-15 meters...