SAGE BALANCE 1v1

Germans:
T1: Grens - fix rifle nade
T2: Scout car 222 - increase fuel by 5 to 10 total, increase cost of upgun to 60munis total
T3: FINE
T4: Panther - increase AI capability of Panther to MATCH that of P4. Currently 1v1 you Cannot really afford to skip T3. Also, the P4, having some AI and AT, is very cost efficient. Also, a P4 + Pak is usually superior vs Soviet T4 then skipping T3 for T4. T4 doesn't have an "all around" tank thus none of the units are as cost effective. If the Panther had equivalent AI as P4 (which isn't that much but enough to be useful), it would make skipping T3 for T4 more worthwhile for what would basically be an Improved P4. Being able to afford BOTH T3 & T4 is a luxury reserved for when you are already way ahead in a game.

Tiger Ace - cost 100 Fuel

Soviet:
T0: Cons - change weapon profile to beat grens at mid/short range, lose at long range.
T1: M3- decrease Manpower cost to 200
Penals - increase cost to 300 manpower and increase upkeep, give them 1.5 armor
right now penals feel like what CONS should feel like, they should differentiate themselves from cons
Give Penals same weapon profile as Grens (long range troops to complement cons)
Also, give them ability to upgrade not only flamer but also 1 PTRS
Currently penals suffer from very poor scaling, this would help them act as a sort of defensive light vehicle squad in a bldg. or green cover, but not strong enough to replace guards rifle, more of a stopgap measure. Make the upgrade 20 munis.
T2: Fine
T3: Fine
T4: Fine
Shocks - increase armor to 2.0
Guards - decrease build time of DP28 upgrade by 50%

KV-8 - decrease speed by 30%.

German T4 proposition - lets make the best tank in the game so it doesn't have any drawbacks. I don't think that's a good idea.

T1: Grens - fix rifle nade

What fix? Like halving the range once suppressed?

T4: Panther - increase AI capability of Panther to MATCH that of P4.

You unknowingly opened the gates of hell by even suggesting that. The 4v4 demons will eat your soul.

T0: Cons - change weapon profile to beat grens at mid/short range, lose at long range.

That's already the case, you should have played the game long enough to know that. It's more a problem with getting in optimal range without casualties and 4-men squads sticking better to cover.

Your other suggestions basically lead to anti-everything-penal-in-M3 spam that can only be dealt with by a Pak40 or Tanks.

The uneven relationship between tank call-ins and especially soviet T3 was not addressed at all?

Is this a troll post?

Your Panther suggestion amde feel sick.

Soviet T3 amd T4 are DEFINITELY not fine.

lol ... lets not? Germans can't skip tier 3 because panther don't kill infantry well enough.. definitely a troll post.

Germans:
T1: Grens - fix rifle nade
T2: Scout car 222 - increase fuel by 5 to 10 total, increase cost of upgun to 60munis total
T3: FINE
T4: Panther - increase AI capability of Panther to MATCH that of P4. Currently 1v1 you Cannot really afford to skip T3. Also, the P4, having some AI and AT, is very cost efficient. Also, a P4 + Pak is usually superior vs Soviet T4 then skipping T3 for T4. T4 doesn't have an "all around" tank thus none of the units are as cost effective. If the Panther had equivalent AI as P4 (which isn't that much but enough to be useful), it would make skipping T3 for T4 more worthwhile for what would basically be an Improved P4. Being able to afford BOTH T3 & T4 is a luxury reserved for when you are already way ahead in a game.

Tiger Ace - cost 100 Fuel

Soviet:
T0: Cons - change weapon profile to beat grens at mid/short range, lose at long range.
T1: M3- decrease Manpower cost to 200
Penals - increase cost to 300 manpower and increase upkeep, give them 1.5 armor
right now penals feel like what CONS should feel like, they should differentiate themselves from cons
Give Penals same weapon profile as Grens (long range troops to complement cons)
Also, give them ability to upgrade not only flamer but also 1 PTRS
Currently penals suffer from very poor scaling, this would help them act as a sort of defensive light vehicle squad in a bldg. or green cover, but not strong enough to replace guards rifle, more of a stopgap measure. Make the upgrade 20 munis.
T2: Fine
T3: Fine
T4: Fine
Shocks - increase armor to 2.0
Guards - decrease build time of DP28 upgrade by 50%

KV-8 - decrease speed by 30%.

Good overall balance suggestion. It should apply to all types of match. (2vs2 to 4vs4)
But German Panther is fine as it is. Panther is already enough good at AI.
The panther is already the best unit in the game. Increasing panther will make German T3 less meaningful.

See you on the field of battle.

KV-8 Decrease in speed YES PLEASE.

relic should hire Sage into the balance team, we need that panther.

What fix? Like halving the range once suppressed?


You unknowingly opened the gates of hell by even suggesting that. The 4v4 demons will eat your soul.



That's already the case, you should have played the game long enough to know that. It's more a problem with getting in optimal range without casualties and 4-men squads sticking better to cover.

Your other suggestions basically lead to anti-everything-penal-in-M3 spam that can only be dealt with by a Pak40 or Tanks.

The uneven relationship between tank call-ins and especially soviet T3 was not addressed at all?

Is this a troll post?

My Panther comment is based on my experience playing the top 25 german players regularly, you hardly see a panther used ever against equally skilled top level opponents, and I feel the reasons I give are partly the explanation. I'm not saying the Panther isn't a good tank, I'm saying a P4 + Pak/shrecked pgrens do it more effectively vs Soviet T4 and vs Soviet T3 (add a stug over P4, and P4 + Tiger or Tiger Ace Call in do it better vs Soviet Heavy tanks (KV-8/IS-2). The only time you tech T4 as germans is if you really want Arty. The panther is a dedicated AT unit, but so is the STug @ T3, and arguably for the cost it does it better. The panther has to get closer, and thus risk AT nade, the stug doesn't. Stug also has slightly better AI than a panther....

4v4 floodgates aside, I did say this was a 1v1 balance post. Tank Call-ins are an issue that goes without saying imo.... and should have been implemented this patch when they increased fuel cost of building tanks.
What I mean by increasing cons mid/short range damage is to increase it further so you would still lose, say, if you are running halfway across the screen to close gap, but if you oorah say a short distance to get close you should decidedly win w/ cons, even taking a casualty or 2 on way in. Also, making Penals a long range unit to complement them. I hardly think adding 1 PTRS makes Penals anti-everything...if you think they would be too good then increase the cost to maybe 320manpower? The point here is to give Penals a distinct role as a long range support unit for cons. maybe implement it so you can only have 1 upgrade on the Penals, so you EITHER get the flamer OR a PTRS, but not both.

Good overall balance suggestion. It should apply to all types of match. (2vs2 to 4vs4)
But German Panther is fine as it is. Panther is already enough good at AI.
The panther is already the best unit in the game. Increasing panther will make German T3 less meaningful.

See you on the field of battle.

Panther has good AI? You drunk or playing vCOH PE?

Well, unless you strafe the poor bastard and blitz into them

Good suggestions mate!

But G-43s should be nerfed a bit, they are way too powerful.
Sage also left out the NeedforBlitz ability; that needs to be looked at.

German T4 proposition - lets make the best tank in the game so it doesn't have any drawbacks. I don't think that's a good idea.

The drawback is that its in T4.

Good overall balance suggestion. It should apply to all types of match. (2vs2 to 4vs4)
But German Panther is fine as it is. Panther is already enough good at AI.
The panther is already the best unit in the game. Increasing panther will make German T3 less meaningful.

See you on the field of battle.

I think making German T3 less meaningfull is the outcome that is desired, because right now in 1v1 (which this thread adresses) T3 is the only thing you ever build as a german player. Even if you are ahead, going T4 can cost you the game.

In the greater scheme of things its probably not good to buff the Panther... (4v4...) so what else would you propose to make T4 worthwhile in a 1v1, but not make it too good in 4v4?

The drawback is that its in T4.

How is that a drawback? You skip T3, stale game for a bit and there you go, brand new all around Panther at your disposal. Even more hilarious in team games. Hordes of these roaming around the battlefield.

If anything Panther should be nerfed, not buffed.
Oh and a free tip for you. If you don't know how to make Panther insanely good infantry killer try to use Vet1 blitz and drive over Soviet units.
There you go I fixed Panther for you.

Besides the Panther lulz:

-I´m seeing grens or cons being updated
-I would love changing the role of Penals into more mid-long range combat oriented with a price increase of 300-320mp (basically the old Penals at 320mp)
-M3 mp decrease should be paired with a slight fuel increase. 221 should get a slight fuel increase.
-PTRS/Bazookas for Penals only at T3/T4
-Shocks armor should stay the same

Germans:
T1: Grens - fix rifle nade
T2: Scout car 222 - increase fuel by 5 to 10 total, increase cost of upgun to 60munis total
T3: FINE
T4: Panther - increase AI capability of Panther to MATCH that of P4. Currently 1v1 you Cannot really afford to skip T3. Also, the P4, having some AI and AT, is very cost efficient. Also, a P4 + Pak is usually superior vs Soviet T4 then skipping T3 for T4. T4 doesn't have an "all around" tank thus none of the units are as cost effective. If the Panther had equivalent AI as P4 (which isn't that much but enough to be useful), it would make skipping T3 for T4 more worthwhile for what would basically be an Improved P4. Being able to afford BOTH T3 & T4 is a luxury reserved for when you are already way ahead in a game.

Tiger Ace - cost 100 Fuel

Soviet:
T0: Cons - change weapon profile to beat grens at mid/short range, lose at long range.
T1: M3- decrease Manpower cost to 200
Penals - increase cost to 300 manpower and increase upkeep, give them 1.5 armor
right now penals feel like what CONS should feel like, they should differentiate themselves from cons
Give Penals same weapon profile as Grens (long range troops to complement cons)
Also, give them ability to upgrade not only flamer but also 1 PTRS
Currently penals suffer from very poor scaling, this would help them act as a sort of defensive light vehicle squad in a bldg. or green cover, but not strong enough to replace guards rifle, more of a stopgap measure. Make the upgrade 20 munis.
T2: Fine
T3: Fine
T4: Fine
Shocks - increase armor to 2.0
Guards - decrease build time of DP28 upgrade by 50%

KV-8 - decrease speed by 30%.

I feel like this is a Biased post as you almost exclusively play Germans sage. I am not going to comment on your t2-t4 being fine and dandy for Russians because there is too much to talk about.
But I will say this as it is right now Germans are almost completely superior in infantry choices and Armour choices unless the Soviet player can get combined arms from both tier 1 and tier 2 complemented by some kind of armour late, but due to cost this is almost impossible for soviets. Getting the buildings you need and fielding the said troops you need from each building is very difficult especially when you consider that any one German building has all the tools it needs pretty much to fight off what you have or enough fire power to delay and hinder easily till your able to get what you need(Soviets do not have this luxury).
This is why I do not like Your Penals idea, anything that increases cost and upkeep for Soviets is going to put them further on the backfoot at almost all stages of the game, isn't that bad enough already?
I'm just going to quote you here from my replay thread from earlier today, your own words "If you make all the correct choices and have comparable skill level, you can't lose with Germans this patch."

So anyway here is my view of what needs to happen from a balance standpoint that I would like to see tested just to see how it plays out and feels. I also think it fits in with what Relic intended with the Russians from the get go. If all stats were left the same as is right now:
" Russians Either need an across the board stats buffs or.. and I like this Idea better leave the current army stats alone and give Russians an across the board decrease in Tech costs and unit costs but not too big of a decrease of course. This would allow the Russians to field what they need to compete while maintainting the feel of inferior forces with overwhelming numbers which I think was the design intention.

Or here is another possibility. Manpower drain effects Germans and Russians the same. While Russians need to out number the opponent to win with just as stiff a Manpower drain as Germans while taking heavy casualties compared to the German faction. Manpower power rate is simply not sustainable as Russians to be able to field the forces you need to compete. Russians need to have the Manpower penalties reduce in relation to Germans this is another idea that I think would help immensely. Germans don't have the manpower choke problem because they simply are not taking the losses the Russians are.

Decrease Russian reinforce costs across the board.

These are some Ideas I have that I think would go a long way to help the Russian Faction compete."

I think with this idea we wouldn't see Soviets pidgeon-holed into one or two builds that is contributing to the stagnation of the meta.

I agree with NorthWestFresh here.

Conscripts and Penals simply do not scale well in engagement due to range issues. When Grenadiers have long range superiority, closing in means losing one or two models at minimum, more of G43s and LMGs. To be equivalent in reinforcing, notwithstanding squad wipes, Soviets have to kill 2 Grenadier men for every 3 man lost. At best in favorable scenarios, they come out even. Most of the time, they don't come out ahead in the MP loss. I've been doing my best to count MP losses (up till ~7 minute mark) and most definitely most engagements will end up with about ~50mp net defecit per major engagement, using 30/per Gren and 20 per/ Con or Penal.

Unfortunately the range=king isn't true in reverse - as Conscript squads for whatever reason have only 17.17 DPS, and Engis have 11.44 at close while close Pioneers deal a whopping 27.78.

Soviets pay a high price of attrition for attempting to hold ground against aggressive Germans, but don't really equal out in all the MP drain that Grens can dish out with G43 or LMG42. This is in context of this patch only, of course.

NWF's idea is pretty neat. Soviet Cons and CEs and Penals (late game) can still be shitty units. Soviet style can still be attrition-themed, wave after wave of meat sacs sacrificing for the motherland. Germans can keep their vet and their pewpewpew terminator style, and Soviet players won't be hurting in the MP department as much.

I'm not as highly ranked as Sage, but I've been playing majority Soviets on this patch alone and it's very difficult to withstand aggressive German pushes. It's very difficult to keep 4 Cons/Pens + 3 T2 units + Guards/Shocks with constant reinforcement and still expect to float 680/760 mp. Unless you were already far ahead. Soviets basically rely on German mistakes or overextensions to win. If Germans played a perfect game on a neutral map, they'd win every time.

I like the idea of decreasing soviet reinforce cost.
Not reducing the cost of squads, because otherwise, soviets will rule early game.

Remember in COH1 ? americans has a building, with 2 upgrade to decrease the upkeep of riflemans.
Upkeep cost seems to depend only on pop in coh2, but an upgrade to reduce reinforce cost of conscripts seems to be a very good idea imo.
Keep reinforce cost of rangers/snipers/penals/shocktroops the same though.

Big problem is no long range infantry for soviets. Germans have long and short range infantry core units plus doctrine assault greens. I suggest making conscripts in green cover slightly better than Grens in green cover. Grens can still rifle nade 3 entities to win the engagement, lmg or flank with pionators/assgrens.

Now that penals are short range and requiring tier one this would allow the soviets to choose full aggression or elastic defense. The soviets would still suffer attrition as german tier 0 and 1 have solutions for both scenarios.

Fine suggestions except for Panther.