The Panther was 're-buffed' after a big price nerf. It used to be almost 700 MP, 135 fuel or something like that. I personally thought this old price to be more fair. So the German player goes T4 with the knowledge that he'll be short an infantry squad for every panther purchase.
The core design defect I have with Coh2 has continued to be there since last year-
The developers decided to make the Soviets have great AI and the Germans to have great AT. I really don't like this intentional distinction as it creates too many gameplay conundrums. It makes the Germans bleed manpower too much, and it makes Soviet Armor weak against T4 and call-ins.
I would prefer if AI/AT were equal between the 2 factions and the developers focus on 'quality (German) vs. quantity (Soviet)'. But it's too late for that............
What is up with the pzkpfw V Panther ?
- This thread is locked
21 Jan 2014, 18:25 PM
#21
Posts: 1571
21 Jan 2014, 18:31 PM
#22
Posts: 134
the problem here is not balance it's RNG!!!!!!!
I've had times when the panther doesn't penetrate. You got lucky just accept it.
The problem here is a rediculous vet1 ability (I mean seriously does the best AT tank also have to be the fastest? And where did Franz learn to drive like that ... Vin diesel??). Maybe tone down the speed buff some or have it come with the risk of overheating your engine like the t34? I don't want the ability or the tank nerfed into the ground but as it stands Germans are able to play far too reckless with their expensive toys as getting into a bad position can often be fixed with a shot of NOS. Unless you hit a mine ... I love mines
What makes it worse is that the elite troop doc can get it without having to actually earn its veterancy making a complete mockery of balance which sadly to say is arunning theme for the elite troop doctrine :/
21 Jan 2014, 18:39 PM
#23
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
God forbid you getting SU85?
You aren't the sharpest knife in the rack and my post was first in this thread you've read, right?
Catch up and think twice before posting something like that again.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 Jan 2014, 18:58 PM
#24
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
The problem here is a rediculous vet1 ability (I mean seriously does the best AT tank also have to be the fastest? And where did Franz learn to drive like that ... Vin diesel??). Maybe tone down the speed buff some or have it come with the risk of overheating your engine like the t34? I don't want the ability or the tank nerfed into the ground but as it stands Germans are able to play far too reckless with their expensive toys as getting into a bad position can often be fixed with a shot of NOS. Unless you hit a mine ... I love mines
What makes it worse is that the elite troop doc can get it without having to actually earn its veterancy making a complete mockery of balance which sadly to say is arunning theme for the elite troop doctrine :/
The vet 1 ability is really not a big problem I think. You get faster speed because it is outranged by soviet AT. So to use it you must risk losing it. That is the point. The vet 1 means that you can get it back if you use it well enough. Look on the first page and see if you don't agree. At least two people (one of them myself) suggest there are deeper problems with the game.
Oh and I completely agree with you, elite troops being able to call in a vet 1 panther is really, really stupid.
21 Jan 2014, 19:28 PM
#25
Posts: 134
The vet 1 ability is really not a big problem I think. You get faster speed because it is outranged by soviet AT. So to use it you must risk losing it. That is the point. The vet 1 means that you can get it back if you use it well enough. Look on the first page and see if you don't agree. At least two people (one of them myself) suggest there are deeper problems with the game.
Oh and I completely agree with you, elite troops being able to call in a vet 1 panther is really, really stupid.
I wholeheartedly agree that there are more deep rooted issues than the panther itself. I'm not 100% sure if i agrre that its the range of the su85 though. In general I think that good soviet tank AI forces Germans into tanks at which point soviets lack a reliable counter because they get outclassed in tank on tank combat and (unless you get some shreks on your shocks) don't have a good infantry AT option.
Id be okay with an su85 range decrease (if it also comes with a slight cost adjustment) as long as tge russians are provided a half decent anti tank tank (maybe muni cost upgunned t34s?)
21 Jan 2014, 20:35 PM
#26
Posts: 2561
There is a much deeper problem in the AI vs AT balance and I don't think the devs are going to realize it till they try to add more factions. I doubt the second axis faction will be as reliant on tanks as the current germans, and I think they will end up having to redo a lot of balance when the time comes.
As for the panther right now, it really needs to become more vulnerable. Right now it has both armor and health that gives it way too much survivabilty since it's also the fastest tank in the game and most soviet AT is slow and directional anyway.
I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, but it needs to be changed into a unit that is still a good at weapon, but actually has a disadvantage that the soviets can exploit.
As for the panther right now, it really needs to become more vulnerable. Right now it has both armor and health that gives it way too much survivabilty since it's also the fastest tank in the game and most soviet AT is slow and directional anyway.
I'm not saying nerf it into the ground, but it needs to be changed into a unit that is still a good at weapon, but actually has a disadvantage that the soviets can exploit.
21 Jan 2014, 20:40 PM
#27
Posts: 978
I still go mostly T3. Reason for that is, that a SU85 is going to outrange both Panzer IV and Panther anyways and that the Panther can´t even hard counter T-34s. There´s always the danger of getting rammed. This means either way (T-34 or Su-85) the Panther needs babysitting. Making it weaker or more expensive would only make late game balance worse.
21 Jan 2014, 20:50 PM
#28
Posts: 157
I'm pretty sure that anything will penetrate the rear armor 100% of the time. Just sayin, that's a pretty glaring weakness.
Plus, soviet mines should be everywhere.
Plus, soviet mines should be everywhere.
21 Jan 2014, 21:22 PM
#29
Posts: 2561
I'm pretty sure that anything will penetrate the rear armor 100% of the time. Just sayin, that's a pretty glaring weakness.
Plus, soviet mines should be everywhere.
Those are hardly glaring weaknesses. Everything is vulnerable to mines, but they are hardly reliable, especially with the panzerwerfer in the same building , they don't last long where you need them most and unless the german player is making a mistake attacking the rear on the fastest tank in the game is not an easy task. In fact, this is a weakness of all tanks and the panther being the faster and having blitz can exploit this far easier then the soviets can to it.
For comparison, the tiger while it is even more durable and has more offensive power is rather slow. So SU-85's and AT guns have more time to turn and attack before being flanked and is more likely to be hit by artillery due to size. The panther suffers from none of this.
The panther SHOULD be vulnerable to AT infantry, but we all know that such a thing doesn't really exist for the soviets.
21 Jan 2014, 21:42 PM
#30
Posts: 1571
I would have loved to see this dynamic, but it's too late:
Germans with smoke shells, 50 instead of 40 range, and 1.5- 2 times firing rate. No blitz.
Soviets with 40 range, rely on low cost and mass.
-------------
Historically correct, also:
The Panzer IV should be penetrated by the T-34/76 and SU-76 on all sides. Main gun should penetrate everything except IS-2/ISU-152.
The Panther's rear should be penetrated by the T-34/76 and the SU-76. Frontal is immune to everything except IS-2 and ISU-152. Main gun penetrates the frontal of everything except IS-2.
The Tiger's rear should be penetrated by the T-34/85 and SU-85. Frontal is immune to everything except IS-2 and ISU-152. Main gun penetrates frontal of everything except IS-2.
Notably, Tiger/Panther/Panzer IV should fire 2 x faster than IS-2/ISU, and 1.5 X faster than all other soviet tanks.
Germans with smoke shells, 50 instead of 40 range, and 1.5- 2 times firing rate. No blitz.
Soviets with 40 range, rely on low cost and mass.
-------------
Historically correct, also:
The Panzer IV should be penetrated by the T-34/76 and SU-76 on all sides. Main gun should penetrate everything except IS-2/ISU-152.
The Panther's rear should be penetrated by the T-34/76 and the SU-76. Frontal is immune to everything except IS-2 and ISU-152. Main gun penetrates the frontal of everything except IS-2.
The Tiger's rear should be penetrated by the T-34/85 and SU-85. Frontal is immune to everything except IS-2 and ISU-152. Main gun penetrates frontal of everything except IS-2.
Notably, Tiger/Panther/Panzer IV should fire 2 x faster than IS-2/ISU, and 1.5 X faster than all other soviet tanks.
21 Jan 2014, 21:57 PM
#31
Posts: 20
Biggest weakness of Panther is that you can walk around it with your cons or guards without having to fear many losses. Just at-nade or button it and one pak can do serious damage. since cons scale better into late game than grens, you should have some vetted cons around the field, with their at-nade range increased by vet, you just have them around viable areas and that way you can repell panthers. Why shouldnt soviets be forced to use combined arms to beat a german unit? ostheer needs to do that all the time!
21 Jan 2014, 22:04 PM
#32
Posts: 747
Those are hardly glaring weaknesses. Everything is vulnerable to mines, but they are hardly reliable, especially with the panzerwerfer in the same building , they don't last long where you need them most and unless the german player is making a mistake attacking the rear on the fastest tank in the game is not an easy task. In fact, this is a weakness of all tanks and the panther being the faster and having blitz can exploit this far easier then the soviets can to it.
For comparison, the tiger while it is even more durable and has more offensive power is rather slow. So SU-85's and AT guns have more time to turn and attack before being flanked and is more likely to be hit by artillery due to size. The panther suffers from none of this.
The panther SHOULD be vulnerable to AT infantry, but we all know that such a thing doesn't really exist for the soviets.
It's glaring weakness is everything that kills it's mobility, mines, AT-nades, button, ram, stunshots, certain terrain and of course infantry (zis, at-nade cons, guards). Don't forget that vet needs to be earned (except lololo yolo swagtroop doctrine) and that blitz doesn't work with a damaged engine.
The soviets only need the infantry to cripple the tank, the damage is to be dealt by tankdestroyers, zis or call-in tanks.
The Panther is fine as it is. It costs alot (tech included) and is lethal in skilled hands which is perfectly ok.
21 Jan 2014, 22:39 PM
#33
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I'm pretty sure that anything will penetrate the rear armor 100% of the time. Just sayin, that's a pretty glaring weakness.
Plus, soviet mines should be everywhere.
Panther?
SU-85 is the only non doctrinal unit that can penetrate panther rear 100% of the time.
T34 can bounce even from that and at panther vet2 T34 will have ~60% to penetrate panther rear.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
22 Jan 2014, 00:08 AM
#34
Posts: 419
What am I missing? Panthers have to suicide rush cheaper Su 85s to compete, yet all I here is how Soviets have no at. If the panther got nerfed there would not be anything other then tiger/elefant to keep from getting steamrolled, especially when there is more than one su 85.
22 Jan 2014, 00:27 AM
#35
Posts: 978
What am I missing? Panthers have to suicide rush cheaper Su 85s to compete, yet all I here is how Soviets have no at. If the panther got nerfed there would not be anything other then tiger/elefant to keep from getting steamrolled, especially when there is more than one su 85.+1
Don´t worry. You aren´t the only one having problems with the need to lolrush in your Panthers to fight SU-85s. This is not only silly but engine damage is certain. Any soviet with half a brain will have a mine, at nade, ram, button at hand to make sure you can´t get away.
22 Jan 2014, 00:43 AM
#36
4 
Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2
You aren't the sharpest knife in the rack and my post was first in this thread you've read, right?
Catch up and think twice before posting something like that again.
I'd suggest you to rather think twice before posting something like this again. Altough you might not agree at all with a post,keep your respect for the person.
22 Jan 2014, 00:53 AM
#37
Posts: 1571
You shouldn't rush SU-85's with your panthers if they have a trap set up (Zis, conscripts). Use the speed to flank and close in on them.
However, I've never had trouble with a single backtracking SU-85 after the SU nerf. The Panther's front armor is still good and once you are on the SU's flank, the SU-85 is yours.
The SU-85, with focus forward is very ungainly, and I find the vehicle w/o it ungainly as usual. It is also poor against AI, panzershrecks, panzerfausts (engine damage, becomes useless), and pak guns.
Against the SU, I actually prefer to use a pair of PzG w/ panzershrecks instead of pak guns or tanks. They hunt down SU's pretty well.
However, I've never had trouble with a single backtracking SU-85 after the SU nerf. The Panther's front armor is still good and once you are on the SU's flank, the SU-85 is yours.
The SU-85, with focus forward is very ungainly, and I find the vehicle w/o it ungainly as usual. It is also poor against AI, panzershrecks, panzerfausts (engine damage, becomes useless), and pak guns.
Against the SU, I actually prefer to use a pair of PzG w/ panzershrecks instead of pak guns or tanks. They hunt down SU's pretty well.
22 Jan 2014, 01:31 AM
#38
Posts: 2779
This thread is really full of shit.
People who cannot kill a freaking blitz panther should play the campaign from the beginning, or even the tutorial.
Just some cons and a single SU85 can kill off the suicidial rushing catz, not even mentioned the lol noob friendly AT nade would not microed away like sticky.
Seriously, it is L2P issue.
People who cannot kill a freaking blitz panther should play the campaign from the beginning, or even the tutorial.
Just some cons and a single SU85 can kill off the suicidial rushing catz, not even mentioned the lol noob friendly AT nade would not microed away like sticky.
Seriously, it is L2P issue.
22 Jan 2014, 01:42 AM
#39
Posts: 4928
What you say is mathematically not possible.
Or you should start playing some lottery asap.
Statistically unlikely, but not impossible. Hell, it's theoretically possible for American Engineers to beat Vet 3 MP 44 Stormtroopers. But only theoretically, the dice-rolls required for that to happen are so unlikely it'd be a universal anomaly, like a billion to one (maybe exaggerated, but you get the idea).
Statistically, the IS-2 should have won. Looking at the numbers, it would have taken 3 hits for the IS-2 to kill the weakened Panther. Assuming it is attacking the Panther's heavy frontal armour, there's a 60% chance to penetrate. The Panther on the other hand has to land 6 penetrating hits on a full health IS-2, with a 50% chance to penetrate.
In other words, that Panther should have been dead twice over, the only reason it survived was by RNG.
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22 Jan 2014, 02:07 AM
#40
Posts: 337
Panther is great in team games, but terrible in 1v1. Or rather, T4 is terrible in 1v1.
I think the cost of teching to T4 should come down. The units in T4 may then be increased in price slightly to compensate.
I think the cost of teching to T4 should come down. The units in T4 may then be increased in price slightly to compensate.
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