The problem with USF Rear Echelon Squads

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 17:34 PMProtos Angelus

Some development in the frontal lobe, higher cognitive functions. Ok, nice. We are getting there.

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 17:34 PMProtos Angelus

Now the problem here is that you used a highly unlikely scenario, with the MG42 being way back and ground elevation in the way and 4 man echelon squad behind. Not to worry. Expected from underdeveloped lobes, you'll get there. Good job anyway.

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 10:32 AMProtos Angelus

...
Tank traps are useless vs MG42s because they are so weirdly modeled that the MG42 will always suppress in a burst or two any squad behind the line of tank traps (2+).
...

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 10:32 AMProtos Angelus

As you can see here, a this is a more realistic scenario, and here rifles got suppressed in 2 bursts due to the holes in the traps, and being 5 man. Don't worry, you'll get to higher cognitive functions like reading with understanding to see that I talked about 5 man squads like rifles and volks have problems with cover (more models-more chances of models fu****g everything up). Again, don't worry friend, you'll get there. English is a most difficult language, even for the fully developed.

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 22:22 PMProtos Angelus

Stopped reading after "RE are a different unit, in a different faction than both pios and CE and they fill a different role entirely, so this is frankly irrelevant"

You can theory craft all you want about unit roles/positions and factions, won't improve your game.

Reality =/= Theory

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 22:22 PMProtos Angelus

Stopped reading after "RE are a different unit, in a different faction than both pios and CE and they fill a different role entirely, so this is frankly irrelevant"

You can theory craft all you want about unit roles/positions and factions, won't improve your game.

Reality =/= Theory

Jump back to quoted post20 Mar 2022, 13:37 PMthedarkarmadillo

stop reading all you want, that doesnt change that its true.

every faction has internal balance as well as external balance. this exactly why RE got made worse, as internally they were more cost efficient than rifles.

take panthers as an example of how internal balance works:
both axis faction have one. if you added a doctrinal panther with 4 levels of vet to both factions, identical in every way, for ost this panther would be more expensive than their stock panther, for OKW it would be cheaper. the EXACT same unit, in different factions, would have a different cost efficiency

conscripts in OST would be broken powerful, pgrens in soviet with the clowncar would be devastating.

pios cant be directly compared with RE because they do different jobs in different factions. there is overlap, but ultimately, they are completely different units. at no pint can pios be an AT squad, this needs tro be considered. when pios build a bunker, they dont get riflenades for sitting inside it. this has to be considered.

RE are lite rifles than trade combat power for utility. they get a lot of utility AND retain USF flexibility. pios are defensive engineer units. they are different units, filling different roles, in different factions. this is undisputable fact, weather you elect to read it or not.

Jump back to quoted post20 Mar 2022, 18:04 PMrumartinez89

What about removing smoke from nade tech and making it unlock as part of LT/CPT. Would preserve OST mg opening but at about the 4 min mark assaulting MG positions becomes viable.

Unlock would be specific to RE.

Jump back to quoted post20 Mar 2022, 18:04 PMrumartinez89

What about removing smoke from nade tech and making it unlock as part of LT/CPT. Would preserve OST mg opening but at about the 4 min mark assaulting MG positions becomes viable.

Unlock would be specific to RE.

Jump back to quoted post20 Mar 2022, 16:43 PMBasedSecretary

I don't really think what you say is anything of value.
that would be because of your apparent lack of understanding of faction design, the role of units within their faction and the weight of it.

What you spend a wall of text explaining is that basically not every faction works symmetrically against/with each other. That's something we all know. And in the older days, that was even more exaggerated.

you claim to know, yet are trying to compare 1 to 1 soley on an arbitrary classification and ignoring the relevant factional details that you simply cannot afford to do in balance

To the point: you say nothing by pointing out that if OKW had a Panther with 4vet (????) it would have a different cost efficiency. Ofcourse it would have. In the same exact way that if SOV was a science fiction faction and had T51s with 25vets and RPGs as snares it would have a different "cost efficiency".

you are missing what im saying. if you added the EXACT same panther (one with 4 levels of vet) to OKW and ost, they would HAVE to cost differently. their value would be different within the faction despite being identical. for ost it would be an upgraded version, for OKW it would be a nerfed version. thats how impactful internal balance and faction design is.

However we try to keep the convo at earth level, not science fiction movie level. REs, CEs, Pios, Sturmpios, RE are all considered to be engie units. Just because there is some flavor inbetween them does not mean they are different.
eh? they are night and day different. or are you trying to say sturms and CE are basically the same unit? thats like trying to say that shocks and obers are the same because they are AI units.
do RE have to build base buildings like Pios or RE? are they the sole form of repairs like sappers and pios? are they ineffective at range like pios? you seem stuck on the label of engineer, and while its true they can do some engineer jobs, that isnt their primary role, and that in itself makes them different

All of them are supporting units, some better at it some worse at it. REs in 2022 balance tend to the worst aspect, because they have been nerfed to oblivion over a course of 6 years. At first they were spammable to shit, then they got nerfed, then they got their cost up and now they are a "not good not bad" unit territory. Basically a USF "Ostruppen" thing.
this is an area where you are actually right. thats actually their job. they are reserve troops so to speak. they are not frontline fighters, they are not engineers like those of other factions.

Pointing out fictional versions of doctrines cannot help. That's my end point here.

the doctrin analogy was to help you visualize the impact using an existing system. for the sake of it make them stock in the same building for all it matters if eliminating that label makes such a differenece to you. a vet 4 panther along side okws vet 5 one and osts vet 3 one would be priced differently even if it was identically