FRP

In the forum there are many complains about maps in large modes and how is not easy to flank the enemy in some of those.

Imo apart from any issues that might exist with map what makes flanking less effective is are the forward reinforcement point some of which can also heal.

For some factions they are available quite early and the are affordable in 4vs4 (and 3vs3).

The presences of these units make attacks ineffective since one can reinforce (and heal) and attacks become to risky.

Imo these units/buildings should be looked at and should be designed more carefully in COH3.

As someone who doesn't play larger game modes - are there specific FRPs you have in mind? I rarely see them used in 2v2 as the penalty to reinforce time is pretty punishing. Halftracks and anything else that isn't a true retreat point are pretty squishy. In my mind the OKW Med truck is probably the most likely offender as it's both sturdy and usually better protected with Flak Gun. Obvious tradeoffs of course with risking your tech structures and the significant resource investment.

In regards to COH3... if I see another faction with truck teching I will personally go to Canada and burn down Relic studios (kidding obviously but barely )

I agree with the general notion. 2v2 maps are usually to small so that it is not really worth the resources to go for an FRP. The only factions that sometimes do that are OKW if they go for T1 anyway and USF since they can establish a forward base by regular teching, although it is very susceptible to the Stuka. In 3v3, they can be super strong on some larger maps.

My solution to FRPs is to just remove them. They are hard to balance and devalue soft retreats. They punish proper micro and risk assessment. If you played too risky with your units, the retreat should force them back to base. If you micro properly and assess the risks correctly, a soft retreat to replenish troops should be enough.

OST has the best design on this in my opinion.

The only other option would be to make a real play style out of it, but then you need to commit with basically your whole base. I doubt this would really work in CoH though. In the current system of CoH2, you can have a full base in the back and still cheese FRP strategies with comparatively small cost and risk.

What should probably also be done is that units under fire cannot reinforce anymore, unless they are in the base sector. This could then also be used to set apart some elite squads like paratroopers that might still be able to reinforce in combat.

As someone who doesn't play larger game modes - are there specific FRPs you have in mind?...

With not particular order Ostheer bunker, Forward assembly, ambulance, OKW T1.

As someone who doesn't play larger game modes - are there specific FRPs you have in mind? I rarely see them used in 2v2 as the penalty to reinforce time is pretty punishing. Halftracks and anything else that isn't a true retreat point are pretty squishy. In my mind the OKW Med truck is probably the most likely offender as it's both sturdy and usually better protected with Flak Gun. Obvious tradeoffs of course with risking your tech structures and the significant resource investment.

In regards to COH3... if I see another faction with truck teching I will personally go to Canada and burn down Relic studios (kidding obviously but barely )

I disagree. Truck teching adds a much needed layer of complexity and flavor in a genre where base building is the norm.

Also, if a T1 truck protected by Flak HQ poses a problem on your game, maybe it is your fault. The only real strength OKW has is in protecting flanks in a way so as to make them virtually impenetrable by sneaky side forces.

In the forum there are many complains about maps in large modes and how is not easy to flank the enemy in some of those.

Imo apart from any issues that might exist with map what makes flanking less effective is are the forward reinforcement point some of which can also heal.

For some factions they are available quite early and the are affordable in 4vs4 (and 3vs3).

The presences of these units make attacks ineffective since one can reinforce (and heal) and attacks become to risky.

Imo these units/buildings should be looked at and should be designed more carefully in COH3.

If FRP were to be removed in a CoH game then you need to scrap all large maps, nobody wants to play a match where you need to spend 5 minutes for retreating to your base & walking back to the front every time. Maps like General Mud, Vielsalm, Vaux Farmlands and Steppes are 0 fun without FRP and every sane person would veto them

If FRP were to be removed in a CoH game then you need to scrap all large maps, nobody wants to play a match where you need to spend 5 minutes for retreating to your base & walking back to the front every time. Maps like General Mud, Vielsalm, Vaux Farmlands and Steppes are 0 fun without FRP and every sane person would veto them

I do have to point out that some faction have no access to a forward retreat point.

But I am didn't suggest that forward reinforcements point should be removed from the game, that was Hannibal's suggestion.

Imo there are a number of solution that can be implemented like:

1) become available later so at least their are not available in the first engagements o the game

2) Have their effectiveness reduced like adding an aura that increases reinforcement time, have reduced healing speed or making heal a timed ability

3) As for forward retreat points I guess one could pit a limit to the number of unit retreating to FRP than could scale with tech level.

I do have to point out that some faction have no access to a forward retreat point.

This is more of a map design issue. OST is the biggest offender here and yet it has no FRPs

This is more of a map design issue. OST is the biggest offender here and yet it has no FRPs

Not it not, a forward reinforcement point work the same way regardless of map.

It simply make things worse in certain maps.

If FRP were to be removed in a CoH game then you need to scrap all large maps, nobody wants to play a match where you need to spend 5 minutes for retreating to your base & walking back to the front every time. Maps like General Mud, Vielsalm, Vaux Farmlands and Steppes are 0 fun without FRP and every sane person would veto them

I like those maps especially for the reason that you need to think about how to approach and retreat WAY more than in most of the other maps where you just slam your squads in frontally because there is no room and no need to maneuver since every spot it crammed with enemy squads anyway.

Suddenly properly timing your troops becomes important, flanking is possible and teaming up on an enemy actually comes with the real tradeoff of abandoning your flank because you can't jump back within 20 seconds.

I think they are decent maps. Overall they should be slightly more rectangular (wider and less deep) to slightly adjust walk times where they are a bit too long. Also there should be specialized 3v3 maps. If you e.g. play 3v3 on Steppe, spawn middle-left and have to take the left flank, this adds an additional 15-20 seconds to traverse the empty 'base'.
Slight adjustments in that regard as well as some adjustments to make them fairer for both Allies and Axis and they're very good for me.

I'd rather have reinforcement points for soft retreats like OST bunkers cheaper and more available for all factions. This way you can fight an attrition war and overrunning an enemy does not mean he will be back in under a minute. These are real strategic victories, forcing your opponents to think more about counterstrategies. Way better than Hamburg where the main strategy is to spam arty no matter what happens.

If FRP were to be removed in a CoH game then you need to scrap all large maps, nobody wants to play a match where you need to spend 5 minutes for retreating to your base & walking back to the front every time. Maps like General Mud, Vielsalm, Vaux Farmlands and Steppes are 0 fun without FRP and every sane person would veto them

Then tell it to those who play for the Soviets in 3vs3 and 4vs4. The Soviets have the worst presence on the map, all you can do is HT plus two commanders with headquarters. The Wehrmacht can build the HT and the bunker anywhere, other factions can build the FRP wherever they want.

If FRPs are the biggest enemy of flanking, then USF should be hard to flank...oh wait, you don't even have to flank them, since it is the weakest faction defensive wise

If FRPs are the biggest enemy of flanking, then USF should be hard to flank...oh wait, you don't even have to flank them, since it is the weakest faction defensive wise

sad but true.

This thread has zero-value.

FRP is a staple not only of COH but warfare in general. If, to make the game more noob friendly, we have to start making simple warfare logistics obsolete then there is no point in even playing a real time STRATEGY game.

It is a very real tactic in rushing a FRP in order to apply more pressure. Just because sometimes it works does not mean it should be killed. FFS people.

The only real offenders here are the Soviets which need doctrine in order to have reliable FRP. I would give them a nondoc choice.

Anything else is just noobtalk.

If FRPs are the biggest enemy of flanking, then USF should be hard to flank...oh wait, you don't even have to flank them, since it is the weakest faction defensive wise

Yes they could really use a some defensive structures like tank traps, wire, fighting positions (yes I am being sarcastic).

If you want to rant about USF pls do it in another thread

If you want to disagree just for disagreeing without actually having anything to contribute to thread pls find someone else because I am not really interested

Delete

I disagree. Truck teching adds a much needed layer of complexity and flavor in a genre where base building is the norm.

Also, if a T1 truck protected by Flak HQ poses a problem on your game, maybe it is your fault. The only real strength OKW has is in protecting flanks in a way so as to make them virtually impenetrable by sneaky side forces.

I didn't say it was an issue but I find it incredibly unfun and annoying to play against. It's especially annoying in 1v1 where locking down Fuel and/or VP and/or Cut Offs simultaneously on some maps just leads to campy play styles and long games (Ahem Crossroads). If anything I'd say it's anti complexity as the essence of "set it and forget it". You always build tech and the only choice is where you want it. When you eliminate flanking and parts of the map with generally less effort than it takes to counter it as a faction "feature" then it's bad design IMO. It's the same reason why no one really cried when Advanced Emplacements, Brace, and other things that made Brit Sim City more viable got nerfed.

It might just be personal preference but I think you can have any flavor that trucks provide such as on field reinforcement and bunker/flak emplacement type fortifications without baking it into teching. Just make all that stuff conscious build choices and units that do those things. /EndRant

If anything FRPs are just another example of how all factions need certain tools in one form or another if they are to exist.

If FRP were to be removed in a CoH game then you need to scrap all large maps, nobody wants to play a match where you need to spend 5 minutes for retreating to your base & walking back to the front every time. Maps like General Mud, Vielsalm, Vaux Farmlands and Steppes are 0 fun without FRP and every sane person would veto them

vCoH vibes with even larger maps.

Imo you are wrong. The fact that FRP even exist for 3 out of 5 factions, just removes the punishing mechanic for mentioned factions for bad play and blobing. UKF\OKF\USF blob AF in teamgames only because they can afford to, since they will spend much less time to get back into the action in case they are suppressed and being artyed.

Forcing ost\sov to retreat means you can win considerable amount of time by doing so, forcing WFA factions on the other hand hardly means anything because they still will be back much sooner. Thats why (especially in teamgames) you can somewhat win against EFA factions just by coasing a lot of retreats, while against WFA its all about wiping squads if you want to actually coase significat losses.

And while FRP are reinforcing at lower speed, you still will be spending this additional time to heal up your squads, since UKF\USF\OKW have access to forward healing so slower reinforcement hardly means anything.

FRP was cancer in vCoH for British, and it become even bigger cancer in CoH2. The only good feature of them is that they allow you to end the game in one good arty salvo against braindead flower who likes to blob and mass retreat.

What should be done in CoH3 - all factions should have access to forward reinforcement tool, so you can play properly, soft retreat, reinforce and come back into the action, if you failed be punished by long retreats. But this brainless "Press R and come back 10 seconds later", definitly should go away.

vCoH vibes with even larger maps.

Imo you are wrong. The fact that FRP even exist for 3 out of 5 factions, just removes the punishing mechanic for mentioned factions for bad play and blobing. UKF\OKF\USF blob AF in teamgames only because they can afford to, since they will spend much less time to get back into the action in case they are suppressed and being artyed.

Forcing ost\sov to retreat means you can win considerable amount of time by doing so, forcing WFA factions on the other hand hardly means anything because they still will be back much sooner. Thats why (especially in teamgames) you can somewhat win against EFA factions just by coasing a lot of retreats, while against WFA its all about wiping squads if you want to actually coase significat losses.

And while FRP are reinforcing at lower speed, you still will be spending this additional time to heal up your squads, since UKF\USF\OKW have access to forward healing so slower reinforcement hardly means anything.

FRP was cancer in vCoH for British, and it become even bigger cancer in CoH2. The only good feature of them is that they allow you to end the game in one good arty salvo against braindead flower who likes to blob and mass retreat.

What should be done in CoH3 - all factions should have access to forward reinforcement tool, so you can play properly, soft retreat, reinforce and come back into the action, if you failed be punished by long retreats. But this brainless "Press R and come back 10 seconds later", definitly should go away.

The only real map where forward retreat points are hard to punish is the Steppes. Mainly because it's so open and wide that chances are, if you try to use ISG or Pak howi or 120mm mortar, they will get wiped (ok, mortar has retreat, so a bit harder) trying to barrage the forward point.

FRP is in itself not really a problem. You can either place it aggressively and risk extra bleed (barraging the FRP) and destruction or place it conservatively and shave off a couple of dozen seconds for retreat. Soviets don't have a FRP in stock, but they have durable 7 man squads and no USF style upgrade racks. I guess only the British FRP is without major "disadvantages".

OKW FRP is tied to the teching, so destroying it yields a big bonus. Advantage: OKW units have no racks.

USF FRP is tied to ambo + major. Major has great abilities and veterancy that adds bonus sight and ambo costs "quite a lot" (late game, 250 MP in teamgames for destroyed ambo is A LOT) and USF units are dependent on weapon racks to upgrade, so it's not as clear cut. So you lose a utility unit + ability to upgrade fast + risk getting ambo destroyed (which is extra easy). All that for a forward point, which is the most mobile of the lot, so that's the advantage.

OST is basic when it comes to forward points, with no clear disadvantages.


So all in all, considering pros/cons, the biggest loser is USF when it comes to FRP, followed closely by OKW.
The biggest winner are British, followed closely by OST.
.... And Soviets have no FRP without the commander (arguably the best FRP but it's locked behind a choice).


So to sum up, FRPs are fine and well adjusted and contribute another layer to the strategy in the Real Time Strategy game

FYI apparently FRP is both forward retreat point and forward reinforce point. Go figure