USF after Balancefinders and Scotts get nerfed

I don't think AT should be the guideline either. My point was more that AT can work around shortcomings, implicitly suggesting that randoms probably won't. I did not clearly type out the latter, so yes, easy to misunderstand my post in that regard.


As I said, I am not happy with all indirect changes that USF got either.

We have to be realistic: There will 99,9% be no larger patch with hotfix for CoH2 anymore. Even this whole discussion about an ever so tiny Pathfinder/Scott nerf might already be futile. There is no sense in saying "if this strategy gets nerfed, then USF needs to get buff X as well". I think what we need to discuss in this thread and where also Sturmpanther's previous thread fell a short is whether this strategy is actually OP or just "cheesy".

If it is OP, it needs nerfing to a "competitive" level, even if the rest of USF were not healthy. Having only one single strategy somehow work does not make the whole faction great, and conversely nerfing that one strategy does not make the faction as a whole shit. It's a one trick pony, and you can only do this trick so often until it gets boring anyway. If this strategy is the only one that is viable, there is no real "USF gameplay" anyway. And again, the nerf should be to a "competitive" level. It should be okay and viable, but not unfair to the Axis factions.

If the strategy is just "cheesy" but not OP, well then it is already in a "good" spot balance wise. Shitty for gameplay, but as I said, there will be no larger patches, maybe not even a smaller one. Hence, no gameplay patches as well. If there are proper counters to the Path+Scott strategy that don't force the opponent to overly invest resources, leave it be.

At some point, USF players will probably get bored of it enough and start playing UKF and SOV, at which point the problem "fixes" itself.

Pretty much what happened to me, got tired of doing the same shit over and over in team games so went to 1v1. Then got tired of the same commanders to be competitive at higher levels so switched over to Soviets. Got to used to rifleman so when I play other factions I go for early assaulters like Penals for soviet and Assgren for Ost.

Problem is the game is balanced to heavily around OST/Soviet mainlines, in most game cast these elite players literally pick the exact same commanders over and over and rarely deviate from 3/4 concript or gren builds. So any strat that forces deviation from this build is viewed as cheese or OP.

USF is almost unplayable in top 200 2v2 without pathfinders, but that is because of the current state of maps in that mode. Nearly all the good riflemen maps like Stadtschutt or Lierneux got patched out and replaced with super open lane maps such as Belgorod, Baku or Wolfheze where riflemen get bullied back to base by A-move LMG grens, volks blobs and Obers.


This trend of replacing urban and/or big sightblocker maps with open lane-camp stalefest maps is going on since years and now you all get the ingame results for it......

Riflemen rely purely on many sightblockers since their smoke nade got removed, and if the map doesn't offer it then they are shit tier garbage.

Not only, there was a powercreep artificially built by the balance team on extra vision range for units that shouldn't have it. It started with Pioneer and ended with any kind of tank on the best doctrines available for OKW at cost of HMG upgrade.
When you are a faction with paper tanks, paper infantry, paper support team facing heavier armored units getting now acces to superior vision range, how do you adapt? There is a constant spam of tools providing vision bonus and I can't blame players abusing it, its crucial. The most spammed ability nowadays is probably the smoke drop providing vision, every 30 or 40 seconds I'm smoked and the guy also has vision for a riduculously cheap price.
USF without Path vision is locked out of those, you only have the M20 and Major which don't even provide equal bonus to other counterparts and dies in two shots. How many Major I have lost on the frontline because I was microing the hell out of the rest of my army and a P4,Obers,Pzg,P5 comes and OS/2S it.

Why the balance team didn't even considerate the option of giving the mortar a vet1 flare? Don't know, they didn't even bother to respond when I suggested it.

Today playing USF is like Hannibal said, or I really want keep all my chances to win thus insta pick airborn or I feel bored and want more challenge (lol) and pick any other doctrine.
At the moment USF in 2vs2 is: insta lock airborn = having 1 leg, other doctrine = no legs at all.

Not only, there was a powercreep artificially built by the balance team on extra vision range for units that shouldn't have it. It started with Pioneer and ended with any kind of tank on the best doctrines available for OKW at cost of HMG upgrade.

Pioneers have had 42 sight since Relic themselves changed it as far back as in 2015 to promote combined arms play with their weapon teams. The Panzer Commander has also always given extra sight, it was just buffed a tiny bit (from 6 to 10 range) because no one ever used the upgrade. Self spotting has been gradually nerfed for most units over the last few years, most notably the Command Panther, snipers, Puma and AEC, Pathfinder and JLI weapon recrews, Pyro Sections, MG42 bunkers, Elefant with spotting scopes and spotting scopes themselves, the Tiger Ace and I guess you could count the sight bonus that Combined Arms used to give that was removed. Do I need to keep going?

Pioneers have had 42 sight since Relic themselves changed it as far back as in 2015 to promote combined arms play with their weapon teams. The Panzer Commander has also always given extra sight, it was just buffed a tiny bit (from 6 to 10 range) because no one ever used the upgrade. Self spotting has been gradually nerfed for most units over the last few years, most notably the Command Panther, snipers, Puma and AEC, Pathfinder and JLI weapon recrews, Pyro Sections, MG42 bunkers, Elefant with spotting scopes and spotting scopes themselves, the Tiger Ace and I guess you could count the sight bonus that Combined Arms used to give that was removed. Do I need to keep going?

From memories it wasn't anymore Relic who leads the balance when the bonus was added to pioneer.

Keep going and compare how many units each faction will field with superior vision. You reduced command panther vision but you're giving +10 to any other tank with an upgrade giving a true edge to those tanks over their opponents on the most populare doctrines. You've reduced spotting scope effect after how many request? 222 with scope is still there and I always see people upgrading scope on their tank when selecting the doctrine and as I said people abuse of smoke and vision strafe, and why wouldn't they?

Now compare to what USF get to extend their vision. M20, Pathfinder,M8, Major plane and since last patch major vet1. What's the most reliable way to get extended vision on the frontline, a major or a P4J?
If you believe Pathfinder is solely used because it synergize well with Scott, you're completely wrong. From what I've listed, Pathfinder remains the most durable unit to provide vision thanks to their camo. In a game where half of you're opponent's units can get vision bonus with a doctrine and your only option is a M20 or a Major already burdened with FRP, then you do the same, you pickup a doctrine giving half of your own units vision bonus too.

2vs2 OKW most selected commanders are
Breakthrough = vision bonus on mainline infantry
Elite armor = vision bonus on tanks
Overwatch = JLI
Grand offensive = extra vision on mainline infantry + smoke and vision strafe + extra vision on tanks

You act like the balance team removed bonus vision from what existed before but the only real removal was for the M42 bunker and JLI/path weapon crew. then more vision bonus were added to different units as upgrade.

As USF if you don't pick a doctrine with Pathfinder, on 2vs2, you're just fucked because not only you can't avoid your opponent defenses by lack of vision but also your opponent, he can predict you movement and get an edge on every fight because he has easier and better access to vision bonus through stock units and variety of abilities in various doctrines.

I never understood why they changed the Scott so that it overlaps with the pak howi. They nerfed pak howi AOE because going 2 of them was strong against blobby-campy players. They gave it the mega useless, more bleed 1 extra guy (who is clumped up with the rest of the weapon team so no real survivability there), and with already on a 1.25 RA modifier, just straight up nerfed it.
Instead of making the pak howi a strong barrage weapon (eg hitting a super clumped up yellow cover squad means death and not just 1 model down with 15% hp left). It's really comical. I always go for double pak in every 3v3 I play and in each and every one of them, paks reach vet2-3 with less than 10 kills on each. The nerf really hammered down the lethality of it. You pay 340 just to damage infantry.

Scott could have been a mini brummbar to deal with fussie/ober blobs but it's just a barraging tool.... like the pak howi.

Rifles go down as the game progresses because the fights are no longer close to medium range, so long range specialists dominate (obers, JLI, falls). Coupled with the annoyingly long snare animation. Just now lost 2 squads of rifles to 2 obers trying to snare two 1 pixel HP P4Js, vet2 obers took down 2 vet3 rifles on medium range faster than each rifle managed to fire one snare on each P4. Comical.

USF is fine as is in 1v1s. 2v2 you really need to be careful and rely on paths to negate some maps (bad design, wide arc MG can push you back easily with a bit of micro).

3v3 is horrible for USF on most maps.

Don't play 4v4 so not gonna comment. Doubt it's any better.



If they nerf the pathfinders because some low rank people find them OP, well... after the scott rework into a mobile pak howi and the constant stream of nerfs to indirects, they really will cement their position as "incompetent people of COH2"

The extra dude on the pack howie actually makes a big difference because that means it can still survive if all 3 guys on the gun get killed. When it was 5 man and that happened it was just a wipe lol.

USF is almost unplayable in top 200 2v2 without pathfinders, but that is because of the current state of maps in that mode. Nearly all the good riflemen maps like Stadtschutt or Lierneux got patched out and replaced with super open lane maps such as Belgorod, Baku or Wolfheze where riflemen get bullied back to base by A-move LMG grens, volks blobs and Obers.


This trend of replacing urban and/or big sightblocker maps with open lane-camp stalefest maps is going on since years and now you all get the ingame results for it......

Riflemen rely purely on many sightblockers since their smoke nade got removed, and if the map doesn't offer it then they are shit tier garbage.

Both Pershing and Calliope are good enough to make USF viable in 2vs2 imo. But yeah USF stock roster has some major problems with winning stale engagements.

I dont think vanilla Rifles are the problem. But it takes ages to get to 2 bar Rifles, while Axis just get their upgrade out of thin air after 4 mins. And i dont think Rifles are viable without fast weapon uprades. On top of that i hate the idea of dropping weapons on Rifles. You pay 150 manpower, 20 fuel and 60 mun per bar to just lose your weapon randomly, cause your squad is full upgraded and can lose weapons even with 1 man left. Just retarded.

At some point, USF players will probably get bored of it enough and start playing UKF and SOV, at which point the problem "fixes" itself.

you have no idea how tryhard some people can be. Some people still getting 2x/3x Lefh in 3v3 and 4v4 or going JT/ele almost every match, spamming tank destroyers, going 3x HMGs into mortars, basically picking the most boring and gimmicky stuff over and over, like they are playing some sort of mobile game So that notion that people might get bored is optimistic at best

USF is almost unplayable in top 200 2v2 without pathfinders, but that is because of the current state of maps in that mode. Nearly all the good riflemen maps like Stadtschutt or Lierneux got patched out and replaced with super open lane maps such as Belgorod, Baku or Wolfheze where riflemen get bullied back to base by A-move LMG grens, volks blobs and Obers.

I never understood why Stadtschutt was removed. Never banned the map and had no issue with paying it.

I'm still trying and might be on to something. But yeah, paths are must, because you either get completely shutdown with HMG42 or outblobed with OKW, which in a short time will get an HMG34 and will still shut you down. Imo the Airborne unfortunately is the only way to go. Going captain into AA HT with pak howie, while having an HMG is a lot for USF + spotting for enemy AT guns and HMGs with paths is crucial. The planes are also very clutch. Imo my deafeats were mostly cause of the hectic nature and not being familiar with the tools, which results in not being able to use them in time. Basically "muscle" memory.
So there might something with USF past cali and Scott spam, especially considering how good HE rounds on Shermans are. But that's maybe my extremely low USF rank speaking that is lower then my other faction's by 2 or even 4 levels lmao.

you have no idea how tryhard some people can be. Some people still getting 2x/3x Lefh in 3v3 and 4v4 or going JT/ele almost every match, spamming tank destroyers, going 3x HMGs into mortars, basically picking the most boring and gimmicky stuff over and over, like they are playing some sort of mobile game So that notion that people might get bored is optimistic at best


I never understood why Stadtschutt was removed. Never banned the map and had no issue with paying it.

I'm still trying and might be on to something. But yeah, paths are must, because you either get completely shutdown with HMG42 or outblobed with OKW, which in a short time will get an HMG34 and will still shut you down. Imo the Airborne unfortunately is the only way to go. Going captain into AA HT with pak howie, while having an HMG is a lot for USF + spotting for enemy AT guns and HMGs with paths is crucial. The planes are also very clutch. Imo my deafeats were mostly cause of the hectic nature and not being familiar with the tools, which results in not being able to use them in time. Basically "muscle" memory.
So there might something with USF past cali and Scott spam, especially considering how good HE rounds on Shermans are. But that's maybe my extremely low USF rank speaking that is lower then my other faction's by 2 or even 4 levels lmao.

While I agree on most parts, OKW can really outblob USF in ONLY two ways:
A) Fussie blobs with G43s -> cancerous when the opening unit is a terminator spio. Those blobs can outblob USF in every stage of the game
B) Ober/falls blobs. I've seen 3-4x ober blobs that are impossible to counter if you don't have a rocket arty. Heck, seen 3x obers mow down 2x vet3 double BAR rifles in yellow cover on long range in about 8 seconds. That's less than 1 second per model. Falls can mow down as well. Hence, if you don't have a calliope: GG. Even the path + scott meta can't stand up to the 2x raketen + KT + ober blobs lategame.

Otherwise, OKW can't outblob USF. USF with the free officers kinda is the definition of a "have 2-3 bigger control groups". Not necessarily the classical blob, but definitely lots of models in one area.

While I agree on most parts, OKW can really outblob USF in ONLY two ways:
A) Fussie blobs with G43s -> cancerous when the opening unit is a terminator spio. Those blobs can outblob USF in every stage of the game
B) Ober/falls blobs. I've seen 3-4x ober blobs that are impossible to counter if you don't have a rocket arty. Heck, seen 3x obers mow down 2x vet3 double BAR rifles in yellow cover on long range in about 8 seconds. That's less than 1 second per model. Falls can mow down as well. Hence, if you don't have a calliope: GG. Even the path + scott meta can't stand up to the 2x raketen + KT + ober blobs lategame.

Otherwise, OKW can't outblob USF. USF with the free officers kinda is the definition of a "have 2-3 bigger control groups". Not necessarily the classical blob, but definitely lots of models in one area.

You really gonna disrespect JLI like that, a blob with 2 vetted JLI will make short work of most units since USF have to close in. Models will drop quickly which gives VG a better engagement or combine them with Obers and you got a death squad.

You really gonna disrespect JLI like that, a blob with 2 vetted JLI will make short work of most units since USF have to close in. Models will drop quickly which gives VG a better engagement or combine them with Obers and you got a death squad.

JLI are one of the stronger long range units. I've seen them mow down vet3 cons and rifles like knife through butter but still it's not out-blobbing. 2 JLI + Obers is a walking death squad and 3 rifles + officer won't win against it but still it's not out-blobbing. As aerafield said, it's the map design fault. Come mid to late game, the infantry engagements shift to long range exclusively on most maps. Here obers and JLI and mg42 grens dominate.

I mean I'm just talking about true blobs. 2x JLI + 1x obers is not blobbing in 3v3 (unless they are literally in a 1 meter radius of each other).

I ain't disrespecting anything. I've seen a vet4 JLI kill 4 models of a vet2 ranger squad in less than 6 seconds. That's why I wonder why axis players have problems with paths, which are inferior to JLI in every way.

But don't call that blobbing.
It's only a case of superior doctrinal infantry and rifle's CQC mainline infantry design.

When I talk about blobbing, I talk about the true blobs, not some weak ass 2x JLI.
A true blob is a blob which, if lost, loses the game because you'll lose 90% of your infantry.

Example of blobbing:
1) 3-4x fussies + 2x raketen + officer + spio with sweeper
2) 3-4x obers with 2x raketen + heavy tank + spios
3) 3-4 falls + 2x raketen + spios + w/e

USF kinda has to send all infantry to engage axis units, so USF is sort of a natural blob faction in teamgames. If you spread out the infantry on a map like the steppes, and you're going against obers, you can expect all your squads to retreat without killing more than a few models. On the other hand, if you use captain On Me + smoke and send 6-8 BARs in cohesion, you can expect to push elite infantry away. Using TAB is real handy here. To avoid MGs, nukes, indirect and P4 shots (like a P4 shot which wiped 5 models of a rifle in last game that were not even clumped up).
Trust me, the only unit I disrespect on the axis side are the volks. Good early game but come late, useless, hence the uber ober.

So many cry babies who don't know how to deal with pathfinders and scotts. Instead of figuring out how to counter them they complain in forums so their mommy adds in a new patch to nerf them.

What a terrible way to get better at the game and solve your losing problem.

I've played this game regularly the past few weeks, all factions 1v1 to 4v4 and I really don't see any significant balance issues anywhere.

If you lose, instead of complaining on the forum, go to the drawing board and figure out how to deal with it.

Relic isn't even updating the game much anymore, so not sure why people are expecting another patch.

Read what Aerafield says too

USF is almost unplayable in top 200 2v2 without pathfinders, but that is because of the current state of maps in that mode. Nearly all the good riflemen maps like Stadtschutt or Lierneux got patched out and replaced with super open lane maps such as Belgorod, Baku or Wolfheze where riflemen get bullied back to base by A-move LMG grens, volks blobs and Obers.


This trend of replacing urban and/or big sightblocker maps with open lane-camp stalefest maps is going on since years and now you all get the ingame results for it......

Riflemen rely purely on many sightblockers since their smoke nade got removed, and if the map doesn't offer it then they are shit tier garbage.

Never agreed more with a post on this site. Why was stadtschutt removed? Because people don't like maps that don't allow them to stay in their "double pak, LMG blob, a-move" comfort zone. So many good maps have been removed because of this and they are replaced by overrated lane maps because it is obvious how to play those.

Case in point: Whiteball is the most popular 4v4 map even though it is an unbalanced piece of garbage. But it makes people feel comfortable EVEN when playing with the side that is disadvantaged by the map.

Also, I don't even think pathfinder blobs are that good in 2v2. It is very easy to lose to them if you're not on top of your game but once you know what's coming it should be possible to overrun them. However, this requires good team coordination which is almost non existent.

Never agreed more with a post on this site. Why was stadtschutt removed? Because people don't like maps that don't allow them to stay in their "double pak, LMG blob, a-move" comfort zone. So many good maps have been removed because of this and they are replaced by overrated lane maps because it is obvious how to play those.

Case in point: Whiteball is the most popular 4v4 map even though it is an unbalanced piece of garbage. But it makes people feel comfortable EVEN when playing with the side that is disadvantaged by the map.

Also, I don't even think pathfinder blobs are that good in 2v2. It is very easy to lose to them if you're not on top of your game but once you know what's coming it should be possible to overrun them. However, this requires good team coordination which is almost non existent.

Whiteball is not really unbalanced. There are some stupid placements and imbalances but overall for 3v3 you have some flanking options. Problem is that on that map I've seen just braindead head against the wall around the mid VP. You have VPs on the margins on the map that allow for some good flanking options but most allies just seem too keen to park TDs on mid and slug it out against super heavies or JP4s. The mid houses are poorly placed and favour MG42 spams massively but overall it's well balanced. One of the few 3v3 maps where you can flank an MG covering the fuel. Pak/raketen/stug/JP4 walls are extremely efficient on that map though. Extremely. Still, it's better than the cancer called Hill400 which is a wide map but severely imbalanced and favours fussie blobs and a couple of MG42s can shut down the entire half of the map. Few flanking options as well.

Whiteball is not really unbalanced. There are some stupid placements and imbalances but overall for 3v3 you have some flanking options. Problem is that on that map I've seen just braindead head against the wall around the mid VP. You have VPs on the margins on the map that allow for some good flanking options but most allies just seem too keen to park TDs on mid and slug it out against super heavies or JP4s. The mid houses are poorly placed and favour MG42 spams massively but overall it's well balanced. One of the few 3v3 maps where you can flank an MG covering the fuel. Pak/raketen/stug/JP4 walls are extremely efficient on that map though. Extremely. Still, it's better than the cancer called Hill400 which is a wide map but severely imbalanced and favours fussie blobs and a couple of MG42s can shut down the entire half of the map. Few flanking options as well.

I'm talking 4v4, 3v3 is impossible to judge because it doesn't have enough competent players.

I'm talking 4v4, 3v3 is impossible to judge because it doesn't have enough competent players.

Oh come on. With all due respect, the 4v4 is such a mess of a mode that it's impossible to tell who's buying and who's paying. Played 2 competitive 4v4 games that were just arty after arty after arty. Even in custom games, it's arty after arty and KT after KT after Jagd after Elefant. On one side you have walls of SU85s, Jacksons and Fireflies. On the other walls of JP4s and [super]heavies. Behind them are walls of indirects and in the middle are the poor bastards that need to cap the VP only to get war-crimed on their ass. Whether by white phosphorous or just good old rockets. Guts flying everywhere. At least in 3v3 you play 1v1 on each VP lane. 4v4 is the biggest turd of a mode with the least skill involved. Well, unless you count pressing lots of "barrage" buttons as skill.

Oh come on. With all due respect, the 4v4 is such a mess of a mode that it's impossible to tell who's buying and who's paying. Played 2 competitive 4v4 games that were just arty after arty after arty. Even in custom games, it's arty after arty and KT after KT after Jagd after Elefant. On one side you have walls of SU85s, Jacksons and Fireflies. On the other walls of JP4s and [super]heavies. Behind them are walls of indirects and in the middle are the poor bastards that need to cap the VP only to get war-crimed on their ass. Whether by white phosphorous or just good old rockets. Guts flying everywhere. At least in 3v3 you play 1v1 on each VP lane. 4v4 is the biggest turd of a mode with the least skill involved. Well, unless you count pressing lots of "barrage" buttons as skill.

I'm not saying 3v3 is worse than 4v4 in my opinion. I am just saying that there are barely any equally matched high skill games happening in 3v3.

Never agreed more with a post on this site. Why was stadtschutt removed? Because people don't like maps that don't allow them to stay in their "double pak, LMG blob, a-move" comfort zone. So many good maps have been removed because of this and they are replaced by overrated lane maps because it is obvious how to play those.

I still cant belive how maps like Road to Kharkov, Rails and Metal and Minsk didnt get voted out in the 2vs2 map voting. Stadtschutt was completely fine, maybe a little bit too much heavy and red cover, but overall much better than other maps.

I hope coh3 has more emphasis on medium tanks, medium range weapons and open maps.

I still cant belive how maps like Road to Kharkov, Rails and Metal and Minsk didnt get voted out in the 2vs2 map voting. Stadtschutt was completely fine, maybe a little bit too much heavy and red cover, but overall much better than other maps.

I hope coh3 has more emphasis on medium tanks, medium range weapons and open maps.

Imo Kharkov is double with any faction, even usf. Prime map for a pak howie with fast rotations to assist teammate, but for some reason I had issues with the South-East spawn, when you face 1 house and lots of fence with green cover from a prop vehicle. Never noticed such issues with opposite spawn with 2 houses. Apart from this, the map is OK, but definitely not the best.
Also Wolfheze is beyond stupid with weird and completely not obvious sight blockers. The house near eastern VP is just meta, which is beyond ridiculous, it completely screws the flow until it gets torn down. Imo extremely unfair towards South spawn.

Stadtschutt was completely fine, maybe a little bit too much heavy and red cover, but overall much better than other maps.

Some minor adjustments for Stadschutt would've made it a pretty good map, on par with Fields of Winnekendonk. But most people like the lane maps where you can just sit back and not worry about flanks. It's pretty ironic, because these laney campfest maps like Red Ball are some of the most popular maps while at the same time the most common complaints are about HMG/mortar/arty/superheavy TD/PF-Scott/etc spam. Yeah duh.

Lol worried about pathfinders still amazes me they have very little at with this set up and spamming pathfinders with bars will never win vs JLI, Fusilers, OBERs, prolly not grens after vet and lmgs thats why they need the scotts too but then they have no AT almost zero maybe a few zooks(that will equal less dps as less bars) or at gun that is only effective vs light vehicle for the most part but i see it stomped out and shoved up their azz over and over by a p4 rush and later they start bleeding the shit out of your barfinders with rocket artillery. Far more effective bleed on expensive barfinders that dont beat most axis infantry that will he used or used in that point of the game anyway.

Swear this is a made up cry. But with our excellent community balance team im sure we can achieve this. You know the ones that have put 4v4 the most popular played games mode that no one cares about into arguably the worst balance state it has ever been in.