HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

Where do we start? This game features several factions that have mortars. The Soviet faction has a doctrinal mortar - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad. While every unit in the game has certain disadvantages and conditions, this mortar has no disadvantages and conditions.

1) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad can retreat to base;
2) Squad strength of this mortar is 5, while the Minimal crew is 1;
3) Mortar barrage - Range of Fire - 95, and GrW 34 - 75 (for comparison)
4) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has Delayed Fused Rounds
Fires the heavy high-explosive rounds that detonate shortly after impacting the ground. (no commander, for comparison, the 7.5cm le.IG has an Incendiary Barrage in only one doctrine)
5) Reinforce Cost - 15


RESULTS:

HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has a high firing range, excellent survivability (squad strength, retreat capability, minimal crew - 1), excellent AOE, ability without a commander. Similar units are vulnerable to flank attacks by assault infantry (not always assault), all units with the exception of the HM-38.

SUGGESTIONS:

1.increase Reinforce Cost to 22

a) minimal crew - 2
or
b) cannot retreat
or
c) reduce range to 75
or
d) reduce AOE damage

Where do we start? This game features several factions that have mortars. The Soviet faction has a doctrinal mortar - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad. While every unit in the game has certain disadvantages and conditions, this mortar has no disadvantages and conditions.

1) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad can retreat to base;
2) Squad strength of this mortar is 5, while the Minimal crew is 1;
3) Mortar barrage - Range of Fire - 95, and GrW 34 - 75 (for comparison)
4) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has Delayed Fused Rounds
Fires the heavy high-explosive rounds that detonate shortly after impacting the ground. (no commander, for comparison, the 7.5cm le.IG has an Incendiary Barrage in only one doctrine)
5) Reinforce Cost - 15


RESULTS:

HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has a high firing range, excellent survivability (squad strength, retreat capability, minimal crew - 1), excellent AOE, ability without a commander. Similar units are vulnerable to flank attacks by assault infantry (not always assault), all units with the exception of the HM-38.

SUGGESTIONS:

1.increase Reinforce Cost to 22

a) minimal crew - 2
or
b) cannot retreat
or
c) reduce range to 75
or
d) reduce AOE damage

The weaknesses and big weaknesses you didn't mention is that it is awfully inaccurate and fires very slowly. If you keep relocating your forces, you will be fine.

I don't think any major nerf in order, but the biggest attraction to this thing is the massive range and the 90 degree fixed arc of fire. The arc of fire buff alone took this mortar from borderline obscurity to borderline OP. The fact that the mortar rarely needs to rotate and anytime has vision of opposition it's putting rounds out is extremely powerful. It makes the mortar very efficient and easy to use and nowhere is safe for the opposition while this mortar is alive. If you ever have a chance to steal one it's always worth it.

I think the HM-38 is fine, especially after the nerf to its auto-attack range with the most recent patch. This 25% bonus range was one of the major advantage it had over other indirect options as it not only meant that you could park the mortar in relative safety to fire away with minimal user input, but also that it outranged most of its indirect counters. Now that this is gone the HM-38 still deals a bit more DPS/area than its counterparts thanks to the good AoE-to-scatter ratio, but this is also counteracted by the significantly lower ROF.

The only area where it truly shines is the barrage, which is much more useful now with the reload speed buff it got recently. Using the barrage, however, means you need to actively manage where you want to shoot and when, so the extra range and DPS are much more justified than they were for the auto-attack.

As for the odd 1-man survivability perk, AFAIK this is somewhat hard-coded into the game and can't really be changed. Hence why the crew size has already been decreased to 5 men from the standard 6 for other soviet team weapons a long time ago. I don't think further nerfs to this would really be necessary.

EDIT:

I don't think any major nerf in order, but the biggest attraction to this thing is the massive range and the 90 degree fixed arc of fire. The arc of fire buff alone took this mortar from borderline obscurity to borderline OP. The fact that the mortar rarely needs to rotate and anytime has vision of opposition it's putting rounds out is extremely powerful. It makes the mortar very efficient and easy to use and nowhere is safe for the opposition while this mortar is alive. If you ever have a chance to steal one it's always worth it.

This is a very good point I totally forgot about. Before the changes to the targeting arc went live the mortar would constantly need to tear down and re-setup when switching between targets just inches apart, which made it a pain to use due to the long setup/tear down delays. Certainly a huge buff to an overall good to very good unit.

reinforce cost to this unit at 15 is a little cheap.

Overal nerf that feels but doesn't impact to much could be to increase the pop cap with 2? Which makes it less attractive to get 3 of these in bigger team games.

The weaknesses and big weaknesses you didn't mention is that it is awfully inaccurate and fires very slowly. If you keep relocating your forces, you will be fine.

This is not true. Its accuracy is the same as that of other mortars, and the rate of fire corresponds to leigas. Any mortar will miss if you move the army.

1) "you didn't mention is that it is awfully inaccurate" is the "weakness" of all mortars, and not only in the game. Although it's funny that you probably think that German mortars are more accurate and that they have homing mines.

2) "and fires very slowly" - Reload duration
8.90. It's not "very slow" given the huge splash. Then add the OKW headquarters "Brace Structure" like all Field Buildings UKF. It's not very fair when all the allies have an overwhelming superiority in artillery, but the British were whining and got the Brace Structure. Leig destroys a regular bofor much longer than a 120 mortar destroys OKW headquarters.

Either the German artillery buff or the allied artillery nerf.

I think the HM-38 is fine, especially after the nerf to its auto-attack range with the most recent patch. This 25% bonus range was one of the major advantage it had over other indirect options as it not only meant that you could park the mortar in relative safety to fire away with minimal user input, but also that it outranged most of its indirect counters. Now that this is gone the HM-38 still deals a bit more DPS/area than its counterparts thanks to the good AoE-to-scatter ratio, but this is also counteracted by the significantly lower ROF.

The only area where it truly shines is the barrage, which is much more useful now with the reload speed buff it got recently. Using the barrage, however, means you need to actively manage where you want to shoot and when, so the extra range and DPS are much more justified than they were for the auto-attack.

As for the odd 1-man survivability perk, AFAIK this is somewhat hard-coded into the game and can't really be changed. Hence why the crew size has already been decreased to 5 men from the standard 6 for other soviet team weapons a long time ago. I don't think further nerfs to this would really be necessary.

What?
le.IG 18
1) Squad strength 4
2) Minimal crew 2
3) Lack of retreat opportunities
4) weak AOE
5) the range is the same as that of the HM-38
6) 7.5cm Incendiary Barrage is only in one doctrine!

Is this supposedly OK? Unkillable Soviet units - "this is OK, cannot be fixed, nerf is not needed", German Squad strength 4 with Minimal crew 2 - "this is balanced." UNDERSTAND.

What?
le.IG 18
1) Squad strength 4
2) Minimal crew 2
3) Lack of retreat opportunities
4) weak AOE
5) the range is the same as that of the HM-38
6) 7.5cm Incendiary Barrage is only in one doctrine!

Is this supposedly OK? Unkillable Soviet units - "this is OK, cannot be fixed, nerf is not needed", German Squad strength 4 with Minimal crew 2 - "this is balanced." UNDERSTAND.

le.IG 18 AOE is not that weak. It fire speed ,acc are very high and these make it has more efficiency than 120mm mortar.

honestly I think 88 mm mortar are better than 120mm.
120MM was missed a lot.

le.IG 18 AOE is not that weak. It fire speed ,acc are very high and these make it has more efficiency than 120mm mortar.

honestly I think 88 mm mortar are better than 120mm.
120MM was missed a lot.

How do you know? If the accuracy is supposedly lower, then this is not felt at all, the hm-34 shoots Leig with two hits. It is not true that the HM-34 miss more often than the rest of the mortars. This is the whining of the players for the Soviets.
Check it yourself in cheat commands, AOE leig is too weak.

How do you know? If the accuracy is supposedly lower, then this is not felt at all, the hm-34 shoots Leig with two hits. It is not true that the HM-34 miss more often than the rest of the mortars. This is the whining of the players for the Soviets.
Check it yourself in cheat commands, AOE leig is too weak.

Yes I did a test before.
leig shell are very accurate and its deal almost 50% damage to my squad when it direct hit(mostly is direct especially stationally unit).
You should test 120 MM vs leig at maximum range by use barrage ability.

d) reduce AOE damage

Dog the whole point of the 120mm is that it has a bigger AoE if you decrease the AoE it's literally just a slightly better mortar that costs more, is way less accurate, and doesn't get flares.

Dog the whole point of the 120mm is that it has a bigger AoE if you decrease the AoE it's literally just a slightly better mortar that costs more, is way less accurate, and doesn't get flares.

Alright, then 120`s must be nerfed in survivability. It isnt good, when im flanking it with PGrens, throwing grenade (btw PGrens grenade "are so op") and after all start shooting in CQC. Meanwhile 120 mortar dont give a f...k about all of this, just retreats. Really?
About accuracy - are u srsly? 120`s neednt it for one simple reason - AOE. Also we must bear in mind 4-5 men Axis squads.

Yes I did a test before.
leig shell are very accurate and its deal almost 50% damage to my squad when it direct hit(mostly is direct especially stationally unit).
You should test 120 MM vs leig at maximum range by use barrage ability.

Yeah, accuracy - really nice, but damage looks like leig using firecracker instead of shells. Also rate of fire not good enough to balance this funny damage. But we`ll speak about leigs in other topic.

At 2CP, one hit from the 120mm is as though your squad was hit by a Brum. The unit also has no counter play, because mortars and leigs just get hardcountered by it, and rocket artillery is too unreliable or comes too late.

Really shouldn't be the case.

Alright, then 120`s must be nerfed in survivability. It isnt good, when im flanking it with PGrens, throwing grenade (btw PGrens grenade "are so op") and after all start shooting in CQC. Meanwhile 120 mortar dont give a f...k about all of this, just retreats. Really?

Its survivability was already nerfed by removing a squad member specifically because it can retreat with only one entity left.

The only issue it has is that if the reinforce cost really is 15 per man it needs to be increased (but

About accuracy - are u srsly? 120`s neednt it for one simple reason - AOE. Also we must bear in mind 4-5 men Axis squads.

Right. Aand you're saying to nerf the AoE soo??? What exactly was the point of bringing this up?

The 120 mortar doesn't do more damage on direct hit than a normal mortar does. They both do 68hp on a direct hit. The only difference is the area of effect is bigger for the 120mm. Nerfing the AoE with nothing in return is not the way to go.

Reinforce cost is supposed to be "unit cost divided by model count divided by two" making it 31mp. I think that at 31mp it would be pretty steep for a support weapon team but 15mp is definitely too cheap a reinforce for what the 120mm is.

Its survivability was already nerfed by removing a squad member specifically because it can retreat with only one entity left.

The only issue it has is that if the reinforce cost really is 15 per man it needs to be increased (but



Right. Aand you're saying to nerf the AoE soo??? What exactly was the point of bringing this up?

The 120 mortar doesn't do more damage on direct hit than a normal mortar does. They both do 68hp on a direct hit. The only difference is the area of effect is bigger for the 120mm. Nerfing the AoE with nothing in return is not the way to go.

Reinforce cost is supposed to be "unit cost divided by model count divided by two" making it 31mp. I think that at 31mp it would be pretty steep for a support weapon team but 15mp is definitely too cheap a reinforce for what the 120mm is.

"Already nerfed" isnt argument. Cause it still unkillable. 120`s have no fear even from Panzerwerfers. About changing reinforce cost - one of the options, why not. Im not saying "to nerf AoE", liar. But "more damage" means on squad. So it could wipe with direct hit. Especially Axis team weapons - MGs, PaKs, Mortars. And it is really unbalance. If 120`s arent so OP as i say, why all meta-doctrines of soviet side has it?

Where do we start? This game features several factions that have mortars. The Soviet faction has a doctrinal mortar - HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad. While every unit in the game has certain disadvantages and conditions, this mortar has no disadvantages and conditions.

1) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad can retreat to base;
2) Squad strength of this mortar is 5, while the Minimal crew is 1;
3) Mortar barrage - Range of Fire - 95, and GrW 34 - 75 (for comparison)
4) HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has Delayed Fused Rounds
Fires the heavy high-explosive rounds that detonate shortly after impacting the ground. (no commander, for comparison, the 7.5cm le.IG has an Incendiary Barrage in only one doctrine)
5) Reinforce Cost - 15


RESULTS:

HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad has a high firing range, excellent survivability (squad strength, retreat capability, minimal crew - 1), excellent AOE, ability without a commander. Similar units are vulnerable to flank attacks by assault infantry (not always assault), all units with the exception of the HM-38.

SUGGESTIONS:

1.increase Reinforce Cost to 22

a) minimal crew - 2
or
b) cannot retreat
or
c) reduce range to 75
or
d) reduce AOE damage

Replay where you've lost to it where?

Since when does the ost mortar have 75 max range on its barrage?

And why is the 1/3 higher pop and 1/3 higher cost for the 120mm compared to ost and sov mortars not mentioned is this biased comparison?

The leig is a tiny but cheaper, has more range on the barrage out of the gate, lower scatter resulting in more accurate shots. More barrage types and faster rof. The 120 mm can retreat and has better aoe, and 1 man to operate and a bit cheaper to reinforce.

That you cant outright wipe it with rocket arty doesnt make it uncounterable or unkillable.
Allied plays can kill leigs next to forward hq's.

Im not saying "to nerf AoE", liar.

Mixed you up with the original poster.

"Already nerfed" isnt argument. Cause it still unkillable. 120`s have no fear even from Panzerwerfers. About changing reinforce cost - one of the options, why not.

A single panzerwerfer isn't going to instant kill Soviet support weapons anyways so that's not an argument. If the issue is the 120mm is too far back to get an accurate barrage then it's so far away it's likely using barrage and not autofire so it's effectively just countering support weapons and not doing much else.

But "more damage" means on squad. So it could wipe with direct hit. Especially Axis team weapons - MGs, PaKs, Mortars. And it is really unbalance.

The whole point of the 120mm is to counter heavy teamweapon play. So its to be expected.

If 120`s arent so OP as i say, why all meta-doctrines of soviet side has it?

The statement that "all meta doctrines have it" is obviously hyperbole, but the reason it's popular is because it counters lazy Wehr MG spam gameplay. Also, those commanders also have other very good abilities *in addition* to the 120mm. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

The commanders with 120mm I know off the top of my head are: Shock Army (Gets shock troops and t34/85s which are obviously quite good), Guard Motor Coordination (also gets t34/85 but also guards and mark target/ vehicle repair), and Defensive Doctrine (includes DsHK, mini AT, and AT Overwatch for a very nice spread of useful abilities).

It's not as if these doctrines are picked *only* because of the 120mm, because they aren't. It's situationally good against support weapon spammers and braindead blobbers who keep their entire army bunched up in a neat little ball for mortars to decimate. People that play aggressively are able to avoid damage from the 120mm just by moving around.

I don't know how the 120mm is in 1v1s but in teamgames it's easily countered if the enemy is actually agressive, because the mortar doesn't fire fast and accurate enough to do a lot of damage to a bunch of squads spaced out and actually pushing towards it.

Situationally good against support weapon spammers and braindead blobbers who keep their entire army bunched up in a neat little ball for mortars to decimate. People that play aggressively are able to avoid damage from the 120mm just by moving around.

I don't know how the 120mm is in 1v1s but in teamgames it's easily countered if the enemy is actually agressive, because the mortar doesn't fire fast and accurate enough to do a lot of damage to a bunch of squads spaced out and actually pushing towards it.

This. The Autofire range nerf was more than enough to bring this unit back from OP territory. I'd also argue that the Timed Fuse rounds are way less useful than flares so it was a borderline nerf in my eyes. I agree that it can be tilting at times if it lands just right and you get wiped as a result but that usually happens due to micro burden and/or lazy gameplay. If you're paying attention that shouldn't happen too much.