SU-76 buff?

Imo there is an issue with pace of the game also but it is not that Soviet light tanks come too late but that many unit come to early.

Progressively patches have made powerful units available earlier resulting in reducing the window of opportunity for certain units to pay of for the investment. To add to that bonuses have been added for teching last tier. The combination has created the "rush to last tier" meta.


Glad that we agree that Puma does not really have penetration advantage Su-76 even when fighting cheaper mediums.

Yes that the pace of the game change is the bigger reason that specificly soviet have a very bad mid game as only their lights got left behind i agree. Same with end tier bonusses.

It still leaves the question why fo soviet lights cone out so late when soviets have no ai upgrades nades or a good mg stock?

And though the su76 has better pen. Does it make the su76 a better choice then a puma? The puma offees far more valuable extras the a barrage for muni.

Yes that the pace of the game change is the bigger reason that specificly soviet have a very bad mid game as only their lights got left behind i agree. Same with end tier bonusses.

It still leaves the question why fo soviet lights cone out so late when soviets have no ai upgrades nades or a good mg stock?

From a balance point of view imo Soviets are not doing that bad.

As for timing my point had to do more with the fact that any changes in pacing should be about delaying things instead of making them available earlier.

And though the su76 has better pen. Does it make the su76 a better choice then a puma? The puma offees far more valuable extras the a barrage for muni.

Investing Puma in most cases is not worth it if one's opponent does not invest in light vehicles. The resources would probably be better invested in something else or in teching.

In sort the answer to question depends on what one is facing.

And though the su76 has better pen. Does it make the su76 a better choice then a puma? The puma offees far more valuable extras the a barrage for muni.

Puma offers more value because of Stuart, AA HT, AEC, t-70 etc. SU-76 does not have that variety of adversity. Pretty much puma is better at killing light armor and vehicles, while SU is better at dealing with medium armor. It is problematic to dive with SU76, while it is rather hard to kite a medium tank with a puma or deal any significant damage to such type of armor without heat shells or vet 3.

From a balance point of view imo Soviets are not doing that bad.

As for timing my point had to do more with the fact that any changes in pacing should be about delaying things instead of making them available earlier.


Investing Puma in most cases is not worth it if one's opponent does not invest in light vehicles. The resources would probably be better invested in something else or in teching.

In sort the answer to question depends on what one is facing.

Yes su is not doing bad balance wise. But imo the has a lot to do with crutching on the t70 and a few doctrines. Its just sad that t3 is basicly dead outside requiering it for t70 and t4.

That the puma isent worth it sometimes is because vs su it wont face a lv in the early mid game and then require a puma to deal with it.

Puma offers more value because of Stuart, AA HT, AEC, t-70 etc. SU-76 does not have that variety of adversity. Pretty much puma is better at killing light armor and vehicles, while SU is better at dealing with medium armor. It is problematic to dive with SU76, while it is rather hard to kite a medium tank with a puma or deal any significant damage to such type of armor without heat shells or vet 3.

I have to disagree somewhat. Axis have plenty of lights, its just vs su you wont face timely lights making the puma usefull. Usf and ukf dont have that isseu as much.

I personally think the SU76 suffers from a lack of scaling, as well as a lack of role. Let us compare it with the other options in Soviet T3:

M5 HT - Reinforcement vehicle useful at all stages of the game. Can be upgraded with an AA mount, which allows it to become an anti-blob suppression tool, as well as a hard counter to late game skill planes. The M5 is useful both when built and as the game goes on.

T70 - Light tank with exceptional AI firepower for the time it comes out, as well as pretty decent armor and AT capability, allowing it to reasonably deal with enemy light armor at the time it comes out, with the exception of the Puma. Scales into lategame with a recon mode that supports and enhances lategame Soviet teamweapons and SU85s.

SU76 - Light AT unit that is more effective than the T70 against light and medium armor, but completely loses all AI firepower outside of barrage. Hard counters lower tier light vehicles as well as the T70, but due to low damage and pen, does not hold up great against the most common German mediums (P4). Does not scale at all into lategame. The barrage is weak and can be found on the fuel-free zis-3 AT gun. The damage bonus it gains with vet only gives it 140 damage, which is shy of the 160 damage breakpoint of lategame AT.

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In my opinion, the SU76 needs to become less unique to become more useful (hear me out). If the SU76 was literally a zis-3 AT gun on wheels, it would be much more useful than it is currently. It would allow players to have a more mobile version of the 2x AT gun meta we have all come to love, at the cost of fuel investment. In other words, it needs to gain pen, gain damage, and lose RoF. These changes would also more closely mirror the vehicle to its historical role.

I have to disagree somewhat. Axis have plenty of lights, its just vs su you wont face timely lights making the puma usefull. Usf and ukf dont have that isseu as much.

by variety of adversity I mean that Axis has one stock light tank (Luchs), two halftracks(251, flak 251), two scout cars (puma and 222). Not a lot of armor here and all that come waaay before SU-76 and could be long dead before its arrival, especially flak HT, due to its static nature.

So we have rather low armor pool of light opposition and rather late timing. If you consider 60 range and decent penetration stats we can see very clear intent to make at least somewhat viable at fighting medium armor, while Puma is purely anti-light with high speed and acceleration, defensive smoke and 'aimed shot', making it the best light vehicle hunter.

Since it supposed to fight medium tanks, it's clearly lacking here and needs better scaling, because current veterancy is pretty crap, in my opinion, and does not help with fighting P4s and whatnot at all.

Not saying it should have huge penetration from a get-go, but at least give it some at vet2 or even vet3.

by variety of adversity I mean that Axis has one stock light tank (Luchs), two halftracks(251, flak 251), two scout cars (puma and 222). Not a lot of armor here and all that come waaay before SU-76 and could be long dead before its arrival, especially flak HT, due to its static nature.

they may not have a lot of armour, but their timing is quite early and vs soviets who lack mid game power they get extra time to generate value. The flacktrack imo is excelent vs soviets, it supresses quite well has the almighty get out of jail free smoke. The su76 if available earlier would be excelent in shutting it down.

So we have rather low armor pool of light opposition and rather late timing. If you consider 60 range and decent penetration stats we can see very clear intent to make at least somewhat viable at fighting medium armor, while Puma is purely anti-light with high speed and acceleration, defensive smoke and 'aimed shot', making it the best light vehicle hunter.

Since it supposed to fight medium tanks, it's clearly lacking here and needs better scaling, because current veterancy is pretty crap, in my opinion, and does not help with fighting P4s and whatnot at all.

right now the su76 is intended both as a medium and light td. It missis the timing for the former and the stats for the later

Not saying it should have huge penetration from a get-go, but at least give it some at vet2 or even vet3.

su76 needs a vet rework at the minumim

su76 needs a vet rework at the minumim

I think there are 2 ways - t3 rework with better m5 and SU-76 timing, or better anti tank veterancy. I'd rather have second.
Currently SOV do not struggle that much, yes it's can be tough sometimes, but you still can have your zis gun and big variety of great non-stock elite infantry (cough..guards..cough) before t-70

I think there are 2 ways - t3 rework with better m5 and SU-76 timing, or better anti tank veterancy. I'd rather have second.
Currently SOV do not struggle that much, yes it's can be tough sometimes, but you still can have your zis gun and big variety of great non-stock elite infantry (cough..guards..cough) before t-70

The vet is easier to do so yeah that would be preferable. The m5 imo would still be to late, and going m5 usualy means a loss for soviets.

It can just be me but dispite being fairly well balanced soviets suffer throughtout the mid game till the t70. Afaik no other faction has that esp not in that margin. Its like you say doctrines or the t70 make the sov midgame nothing else.

But having great units in doctrines doesnt fix the faction. The ptrs its sill a pea shooter for a at weapon only good early on. Not that guards are bad units far from it but button is easely countered and expensive.

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In my opinion, the SU76 needs to become less unique to become more useful (hear me out). If the SU76 was literally a zis-3 AT gun on wheels, it would be much more useful than it is currently. It would allow players to have a more mobile version of the 2x AT gun meta we have all come to love, at the cost of fuel investment. In other words, it needs to gain pen, gain damage, and lose RoF. These changes would also more closely mirror the vehicle to its historical role.

This would make it scale better and solve part of the reason why Soviets struggle so badly in 4v4's. On a lot of maps, there are only limited places that you can place your AT so even if the player isn't scouting, they can often guess where your AT guns are and decrew them. Either that or you put them so far behind the lines that they don't do anything. I'd get SU76's on maps like Lienne where AT guns are nearly useless.

Buffing Su-76 performance would would have to come with increase in cost. That would lead to being build less because would lead to further delay in T4 which even now is better choice.

These issue have to with pace and fixing them would require reverting some the changes that increased the pace.

Buffing Su-76 performance would would have to come with increase in cost. That would lead to being build less because would lead to further delay in T4 which even now is better choice.

These issue have to with pace and fixing them would require reverting some the changes that increased the pace.

deal, free barrage with less cooldown and/or full ZIS-3 stats for 90 fuel and 20 more mp

The initial performance of the su76 is rather good, the issue lies in its scaling which is not very good. To buy a unit that does not scale requires it to be high impact when it comes out (clown car for example) especially if it delays teching. If it's not going to be high impact it needs to be worth the investment long term which the su76 simply is not.

Perhaps an alternative to performance changes could be reduced pop with vet if possible. Outside that maybe allowing it to deploy as a light howitzer, making it static but reducing the cooldown of the barrage and increasing the range of the barrage. When panthers or skirted tanks start rolling around its AT is supplementary at best anyways, and it's +20 damage (stupid BTW) doesn't really help much in that regard, so lean on its other role.

Keep the Su76 as it is but make it available once two building are built

I think it can be buffed in a little part, Its Target size.
Light tank-based Tank destroyer have X20 Target size. as same as Pz4, T-34s, and Cromwells, you know, JP4 and StuGs are X17s.

so, I think it can buffed its target size X20 to X16~X18.

the only buff SU76 needs is its anti infantry performance. soviet mainline infantry sucks. SU85 is dedicated anti armor. this will help to define soviet armor role in late game

increase splash from 0.5 o 2.0, and increase scatter slightly

the only buff SU76 needs is its anti infantry performance. soviet mainline infantry sucks. SU85 is dedicated anti armor. this will help to define soviet armor role in late game

increase splash from 0.5 o 2.0, and increase scatter slightly

You want to quadruple the splash? What in the actual fuck?

You want to quadruple the splash? What in the actual fuck?

good change.

Reduce target size on SU76, improve turn rate and vet3 brings the damage to 160. Reduce ROF by 0.3s.
Compared to Stug, a somewhat comparable unit, it would have less survivability, more agility, less penetration (also on average vs better armour), cost a bit less, have slightly lower ROF but you get a barrage, which is a great tool generally.
You could also improve the AOE of the barrage at the cost of cooldown, scatter or whatnot, I'm not well versed in those stats. But that would be optional.

If you keep it alive, a dual SU76 would eat everything but the heaviest tanks, in one bite. Most useful on open maps. And the downside would be that if you do go for dual SU76, well you get great AT with decent AI but you skimp out on early T34-76 to close the game and/or eat the popcap for a SU85/katyusha