SU-76 buff?

Yeah if the su76 arrived earlier you when there are actual lights still on the field it would be an absolutly fine unit. Cus soviets dont only have a inf weakness mid game, they also are not very strong vs light vehicles early on. Both make the mid game harder for soviets imo. Both ost and okw have fast and strong lights with smoke in most cases.

If t3 is split and su76 and m5 arrive earlier it would give soviets a choice instead of always go t70. Not that this will happen but i can hope it will someday.

The last patch actually made it arrive a tiny bit earlier. But that's not gonna save it. Axis get their LV between 5-7 minutes depending if it is OST or OKW and teching choices, Soviets get their LV now at 7-8 minutes which is a tad later but also stronger. The timings are all fine. The timings for the SU76 considering its strength is also fully okay.

As Soviets, if you're playing T1 you can rely on PTRS to fight LVs. If you're playing T2 you have access to the ZiS which has better late game scaling. But with Axis' weapon upgrades kicking it at around 4-5 minutes, your infantry will start losing the fight and the Su76 will not help you in that regard. So you will always build the T70 to carry you over that 10 minute drought until your infantry becomes competitive again. Additionally, the T70 can take on all Axis LVs if necessary except for the Puma, which in turn only is built in response to your T70. And nobody will to T70-(Puma)-SU76, especially since the SU76 is a shitty choice against OKW. Against OST LVs, your T70 will do fine. There is just no niche for the SU76 in the Soviet army.

The last patch actually made it arrive a tiny bit earlier. But that's not gonna save it. Axis get their LV between 5-7 minutes depending if it is OST or OKW and teching choices, Soviets get their LV now at 7-8 minutes which is a tad later but also stronger. The timings are all fine. The timings for the SU76 considering its strength is also fully okay.

As Soviets, if you're playing T1 you can rely on PTRS to fight LVs. If you're playing T2 you have access to the ZiS which has better late game scaling. But with Axis' weapon upgrades kicking it at around 4-5 minutes, your infantry will start losing the fight and the Su76 will not help you in that regard. So you will always build the T70 to carry you over that 10 minute drought until your infantry becomes competitive again. Additionally, the T70 can take on all Axis LVs if necessary except for the Puma, which in turn only is built in response to your T70. And nobody will to T70-(Puma)-SU76, especially since the SU76 is a shitty choice against OKW. Against OST LVs, your T70 will do fine. There is just no niche for the SU76 in the Soviet army.

In my games i find that the combi of lv and ai upgrades for inf being very strong (this especialy true for okw) Those are quite manageble indavidualy.

In terms of dps and stopping power axis lights mostly dont fall short to the allied lv's. Most also have acces to smoke stock or via doctrines. Allied at early on isent as potent as axis at is.

The t70can fight axis lights yes but its not close to being great at it. It takes quite a few shots for it to kill a light.

I believe if the su76 comes early enough to able to put pressure on the flacktrack okw will be forced to go puma or raketten early on. This way soviets dont face ai upgrades and ai lv's always. Same goes for osther plays with flametrack or doctrinal clown track wich can hulldown. This way you dont need the t70 to carry the game.

That is simply incorrect.

Apart from doing more damage in AT the bonus applies to barrage also increasing the kill radius.

This is simply a personal attack that is being used in an attempt to derail the thread.

When most tanks have 640 health, there isn't a significant difference between 120 and 140 damage. When the SU76 is paired with another AT (either a ZIS or SU85), it will take 3 volleys to kill a tank whether the damage is 120 or 140. Unless there is a special Vipper version of COH where you win the game based on the number of times you almost kill a tank, there is no significant advantage to 140 over 120.

In my games i find that the combi of lv and ai upgrades for inf being very strong (this especialy true for okw) Those are quite manageble indavidualy.

In terms of dps and stopping power axis lights mostly dont fall short to the allied lv's. Most also have acces to smoke stock or via doctrines. Allied at early on isent as potent as axis at is.

The t70can fight axis lights yes but its not close to being great at it. It takes quite a few shots for it to kill a light.

I believe if the su76 comes early enough to able to put pressure on the flacktrack okw will be forced to go puma or raketten early on. This way soviets dont face ai upgrades and ai lv's always. Same goes for osther plays with flametrack or doctrinal clown track wich can hulldown. This way you dont need the t70 to carry the game.

I'll make it short because otherwise this might derail into a T70 topic. Note ahead though your LV does not need to kill the enemy LV, it is often enough to stop it from chasing and wiping your squads.
As Soviets you have 2 options:
- vs OST 222 or 251, the T70 is sufficient to hold both back. An SU76 would mean investing double the fuel and more MP to counter a way cheaper vehicle. Apart from countering an OST LV, the SU76 would be mostly useless. Although the SU76 performs okay vs Ost P4, it's usually not worth the T4 delay. T1 builds can rely on PTRS Penals/Guards instead, T2 builds on the ZiS which also scales better into the late game.
- vs OKW, the SU76 counters the Luchs very nicely. A T70 provides still enough stopping power to neutralize the Luchs. The Luchs does not burst though, so it is still susceptible to PTRS Penals in T1 or ZiS in T2. Additionally, your SU76 will be a complete misinvestment once the enemy P4 rolls out.
Combine this with the fact that the SU76 can't support your infantry, so building it will also mean giving up map control without the option of a quick T34.

The unit is fine with its stats. Compare it's performance and price against Ost T3 builds, it does alright. But there is just no window or role in which you'd really want to buy one. If we assume the SU76 is decently priced for its performance but is not bought because of other reasons (timing, niche, factional reasons etc), buffing it is highly risky and could make spam strategies meta again.

The SU76 was spammed until it lost its free barrage. At this point it could not provide the infantry support that Soviets desperately need between 5-15 minutes (plus the fact that call ins got removed since SU76 builds at the time often did not tech to T4 or teched very, very late). Now you get neither early shock value, nor the ability to survive in the late game.

This is simply a personal attack that is being used in an attempt to derail the thread.

When most tanks have 640 health, there isn't a significant difference between 120 and 140 damage. When the SU76 is paired with another AT (either a ZIS or SU85), it will take 3 volleys to kill a tank whether the damage is 120 or 140. Unless there is a special Vipper version of COH where you win the game based on the number of times you almost kill a tank, there is no significant advantage to 140 over 120.

In the AT department I agree. The bonus only works if you use SU76 in tandems. But Vipper was talking about the vet bonus also applying to the barrage.

As Soviets, if you're playing T1 you can rely on PTRS to fight LVs. If you're playing T2 you have access to the ZiS which has better late game scaling. But with Axis' weapon upgrades kicking it at around 4-5 minutes, your infantry will start losing the fight and the Su76 will not help you in that regard. So you will always build the T70 to carry you over that 10 minute drought until your infantry becomes competitive again. Additionally, the T70 can take on all Axis LVs if necessary except for the Puma, which in turn only is built in response to your T70. And nobody will to T70-(Puma)-SU76, especially since the SU76 is a shitty choice against OKW. Against OST LVs, your T70 will do fine. There is just no niche for the SU76 in the Soviet army.

So the unit is fine, but it is inferior to almost every other alternative that the soviet faction has, on TOP of of shooting yourself in the foot for not getting a T-70 or tier 4

If a vehicle doesn't fit any role, or does them worse than any other option, then the vehicle clearly needs some work to make it better, and the SU-76 fits just that criteria. Yes, its worse than the zis, its delays your t-4 for no gain, the vet1 ability is simply stupid, and so on. All it needs is a push, and it could be a vehicle that is useful throughout the entire game, and not for a time when it isn't even available.


Ironically that there is a fear of the SU-76 being spammed, when the only way you can utilize the AT of the su-76 after 12 minutes is to make 5 to 6 of them and pepper the enemy with low damage shots (and yet 3 stugs do the same task but way better than the su-76 ever will xDdDdD)

This is simply a personal attack that is being used in an attempt to derail the thread.

There was not a single personal comment directed to you at that post and the SU-76 is the topic of this thread.

I wish that some people would stop repeating the "derail" mantra it is getting really really old.

When most tanks have 640 health, there isn't a significant difference between 120 and 140 damage. When the SU76 is paired with another AT (either a ZIS or SU85), it will take 3 volleys to kill a tank whether the damage is 120 or 140. Unless there is a special Vipper version of COH where you win the game based on the number of times you almost kill a tank, there is no significant advantage to 140 over 120.

Medium tanks have 640 HP there are plenty of vehicles with different total HP.

In addition extra damage means extra XP gained for each penetrating shot.

Finally as I have already explained the extra damage applies both to autofire and barrage. That means that extra damage allow the unit to one shot entities.

In sort the extra damage is a useful vet bonus.

(edited)

...
The unit is fine with its stats. Compare it's performance and price against Ost T3 builds, it does alright. But there is just no window or role in which you'd really want to buy one. If we assume the SU76 is decently priced for its performance but is not bought because of other reasons (timing, niche, factional reasons etc), buffing it is highly risky and could make spam strategies meta again.
...

Exactly.

This is the direct result of the "rush to end tier" mentality and the call-in changes. Certain unit are simply not worth investing in due to advantages of going T4.

So the unit is fine, but it is inferior to almost every other alternative that the soviet faction has, on TOP of of shooting yourself in the foot for not getting a T-70 or tier 4

If a vehicle doesn't fit any role, or does them worse than any other option, then the vehicle clearly needs some work to make it better, and the SU-76 fits just that criteria. Yes, its worse than the zis, its delays your t-4 for no gain, the vet1 ability is simply stupid, and so on. All it needs is a push, and it could be a vehicle that is useful throughout the entire game, and not for a time when it isn't even available.

Ironically that there is a fear of the SU-76 being spammed, when the only way you can utilize the AT of the su-76 after 12 minutes is to make 5 to 6 of them and pepper the enemy with low damage shots (and yet 3 stugs do the same task but way better than the su-76 ever will xDdDdD)

That's a prime example of redundancy - the option does not have to be bad by itself, it just might no be a vital part. Especially if you have more pressing issues to deal with like the lack of AI capabilities. OKW would probably also never get a Puma if they did not have their StG upgrades. You need to fix the biggest issue, which for Soviets at the 7-8 minute mark is the lack of AI.
I agree that because of this the SU76 does not have a proper role in the Soviet faction. However, this does not mean it were bad by itself. It needs more of a rework than a buff. Sure a small buff might not tip the scale to a broken unit, but you can quickly generate big issues with that.
I don't know if you have been during the glory days of the SU76, but seeing 4 of them from the same player was not even a meme play back then.

In the AT department I agree. The bonus only works if you use SU76 in tandems. But Vipper was talking about the vet bonus also applying to the barrage.

No, he wasn't. I made a specific comment about the increased AT not providing any significant benefit. He said I was simply incorrect.

I know what the argument was about. Your comment feels like more gaslighting, just coming from a senior moderator.

...Due to the way that most tanks have some multiple of 160, the 16.7% improvement doesn't really provide a benefit. .....

That is simply incorrect.
....

Thanks for posting the veterancy. One of the things that sticks out is the +16.7% damage. I didn't realize it got any buff. Due to the way that most tanks have some multiple of 160, the 16.7% improvement doesn't really provide a benefit. Increasing it to 33% like the Puma has would help it a bit. A penetration bonus would also be helpful.

120*1.167=140
640/120=5.3≈6 penetrating shots to kill.
640/140=4.5≈5 penetrating shots to kill

120*1.167=140
640/120=5.3≈6 penetrating shots to kill.
640/140=4.5≈5 penetrating shots to kill

If the game was played on a spreadsheet, that would matter. Single AT sources rarely kill anything. The SU76 often ends up paired with a ZIS or a SU85. They usually hit and pen P4's. The alpha damage is 280 or 300, but it will take 3 more penetrating hits to kill a medium in either case.

I'll make it short because otherwise this might derail into a T70 topic. Note ahead though your LV does not need to kill the enemy LV, it is often enough to stop it from chasing and wiping your squads.
As Soviets you have 2 options:
- vs OST 222 or 251, the T70 is sufficient to hold both back. An SU76 would mean investing double the fuel and more MP to counter a way cheaper vehicle. Apart from countering an OST LV, the SU76 would be mostly useless. Although the SU76 performs okay vs Ost P4, it's usually not worth the T4 delay. T1 builds can rely on PTRS Penals/Guards instead, T2 builds on the ZiS which also scales better into the late game.
- vs OKW, the SU76 counters the Luchs very nicely. A T70 provides still enough stopping power to neutralize the Luchs. The Luchs does not burst though, so it is still susceptible to PTRS Penals in T1 or ZiS in T2. Additionally, your SU76 will be a complete misinvestment once the enemy P4 rolls out.
Combine this with the fact that the SU76 can't support your infantry, so building it will also mean giving up map control without the option of a quick T34.

The unit is fine with its stats. Compare it's performance and price against Ost T3 builds, it does alright. But there is just no window or role in which you'd really want to buy one. If we assume the SU76 is decently priced for its performance but is not bought because of other reasons (timing, niche, factional reasons etc), buffing it is highly risky and could make spam strategies meta again.

The SU76 was spammed until it lost its free barrage. At this point it could not provide the infantry support that Soviets desperately need between 5-15 minutes (plus the fact that call ins got removed since SU76 builds at the time often did not tech to T4 or teched very, very late). Now you get neither early shock value, nor the ability to survive in the late game.


In the AT department I agree. The bonus only works if you use SU76 in tandems. But Vipper was talking about the vet bonus also applying to the barrage.

I dont think we need to fear off spamming it. The ostwind was buffed for this same reason, it didnt fit in the roster because ost and okw have plenty of aa and the p4 is a much better general choice and the stug is vastly supior in at. At best it shuts down the single allied lv per game.
They even had to put a model cap on its shells. Still its rarely used.

And just a thought, what if it becomes a light brumbar with slightly shorter range and lower rof but bigger aoe? This is something soviets lack a good breakthrough/siege unit stock.

Maybe make barrage free again? I forget why they added cost but i dont ppl spam the su76 anymore ever since some of the other nerfs

Maybe make barrage free again? I forget why they added cost but i dont ppl spam the su76 anymore ever since some of the other nerfs

When the barrage was free, some people would get 3-5 of them and would make it hard to use cover or mg's against them.

When the barrage was free, some people would get 3-5 of them and would make it hard to use cover or mg's against them.

what people do to mimick a mere fraction of Brummbar's power

When the barrage was free, some people would get 3-5 of them and would make it hard to use cover or mg's against them.

The su76 AT was also nerfed since then though. The issue was mostly that it scaled incredibly to spam su76s because they worked well en mass against heavy Armour AND was great at barraging soft targets.

Its since been tuned to be worse against heavies. Very least we could look at a cost reduction on the barrage, even with vet

Additionally, make it's damage 160 with vet and it's barrage use its own weapon type so that barrage doesn't have unintended buffs. The game uses formula based mostly around the 160 damage base for AT and the su76 going up to 140 is quite fucky. It makes it difficult to use in conjunction with other AT weapons.

When the barrage was free, some people would get 3-5 of them and would make it hard to use cover or mg's against them.

Yeah but they've nerfed its penetration since then. And the barrage was nerfed a tiny bit too I think

That said I think free barrage would be mistake. The cost isn't that much and Soviets don't have heavy muni drain to begin with

I think making it cheaper by 10 or 15 fuel would help. It's the most expensive item in t3 (iirc) and doesn't have the payoff to reflect that price. That way you use it as a mobile AT platform when you're down on fuel and need it in a pinch.

Yeah but they've nerfed its penetration since then. And the barrage was nerfed a tiny bit too I think

That said I think free barrage would be mistake. The cost isn't that much and Soviets don't have heavy muni drain to begin with

I don't want free barrage because I don't want to play against it. Buffing the damage to 160 would help it against mediums but wouldn't affect heavies that much. I think the penetration nerf was done specifically to detune it against heavies and it would still be an effective nerf even if the damage was buffed to 160.

A small cost decrease to the barrage would be helpful. I play a lot of Soviet and think it has a heavy muni drain.

If the game was played on a spreadsheet, that would matter. Single AT sources rarely kill anything. The SU76 often ends up paired with a ZIS or a SU85. They usually hit and pen P4's. The alpha damage is 280 or 300, but it will take 3 more penetrating hits to kill a medium in either case.

if you factor in any 160 damage from any source, indeed it does not make any difference to 640 hp unit. Although it is fairly realistic situation when su-76 is the only source of damage to a specific unit.

Imo, if anything the unit need more penetration to be relevant after arrival of p4, at least make it so 'suchka' pens pre vet2 PIV consistently like it used to couple years ago.