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The state of Sturmtiger

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17 Aug 2021, 12:45 PM
#301
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2



Game promotes blobbing at lower skill levels, scouting is less relevant. ST shoots out of nowhere scoring a lot of kills. Just don't make units like that.


So you define what the game is like at lower levels and when your description no longer fits that's a problem? The game promotes blobbing at lower skill levels? Well no more of that with the Sturmtiger. Scouting is less relevant? Well maybe it isn't. Makes no sense.
17 Aug 2021, 12:56 PM
#302
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197



why should i discuss l2p issues without even a provided replay?

I don't , neither does anyone here in this thread need to provide a replay for you to know that the ST is broken.If you actually play the game you would know the ST is broken.Oh, maybe I forgot that you could just be a run-of-the-mill axis fanboy defending his crutch vehicle, there's no shortage of people like that in this game.
17 Aug 2021, 13:05 PM
#303
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 12:45 PMGiaA


So you define what the game is like at lower levels and when your description no longer fits that's a problem? The game promotes blobbing at lower skill levels? Well no more of that with the Sturmtiger. Scouting is less relevant? Well maybe it isn't. Makes no sense.

if Sturmtiger was only effective against blobs, the thread would not have been created in the first place. This is just a silly argument.
17 Aug 2021, 13:08 PM
#304
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919




balance discussions are just a lazy excuse for not wanting to adapt yourself and question oneself's performance.

(provide a replay and ask people what you could've done better in that specific match e.g. something which could've been done a hundred times in the time you wrote your balance posts)


Reaching toplevel play cost a lot of time, its not posting just a replay. Can you imagine that players that buy a game for its full price just want to play it from time to time to have some fun? Can you imagine that it is frustrating if there are units that are op below toplevel play?

In this situation you have three options:
1) stop playing (community dwindles)
2) post somewhere offical hoping that someone takes it serious (to get the ultimate "playercard plz" or "l2p" answer)
3) live with the situation and either change faction or endure that you loose more than you are winning, because game is balanced around toplevel play or around one gamemode

Pesonally I do think there is a company behind each game that only earns a very small margin of money with a few topplayers. They better should balance the game for the big part of casual players too. Everyone wants a fun experience and the company needs the money. It is just that easy.


17 Aug 2021, 13:20 PM
#305
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


Reaching toplevel play cost a lot of time, its not posting just a replay. Can you imagine that players that buy a game for its full price just want to play it from time to time to have some fun? Can you imagine that it is frustrating if there are units that are op below toplevel play?


I'm having so much fun flaming OKW asses with M3 as soviets, because they dont have snares and play for fun B-)
17 Aug 2021, 13:21 PM
#306
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919



I'm having so much fun flaming OKW asses with M3 as soviets, because they dont have snares and play for fun B-)


Matchmaking is quite bad too, maybe the player base is just too small already.
17 Aug 2021, 13:36 PM
#307
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2



Reaching toplevel play cost a lot of time, its not posting just a replay. Can you imagine that players that buy a game for its full price just want to play it from time to time to have some fun? Can you imagine that it is frustrating if there are units that are op below toplevel play?

In this situation you have three options:
1) stop playing (community dwindles)
2) post somewhere offical hoping that someone takes it serious (to get the ultimate "playercard plz" or "l2p" answer)
3) live with the situation and either change faction or endure that you loose more than you are winning, because game is balanced around toplevel play or around one gamemode

Pesonally I do think there is a company behind each game that only earns a very small margin of money with a few topplayers. They better should balance the game for the big part of casual players too. Everyone wants a fun experience and the company needs the money. It is just that easy.




But you can't balance the game for low level players. As I said it's literally impossible and that's not an exaggeration. It's impossible in the actual sense of the word. Every low level player has a diffent take on any given issue because their takes are rooted in their own personal strengths, weaknesses and preferences. If you fix the game for one person you break it for another. That's why you have to distill some kind of objective criteria for unit strength. Otherwise you have nothing to work with. And the only way to do that is looking at the most optimal play available. I don't undestand how this is so hard to grasp.

Edit: Donnie is also right about not trying to improve. You have to understand that low level player balance concerns are just absurd to people who know how to play the game. It's like me arguing in chess forums that the Queen is overpowered. It would be way more advantageous for the thread creators to ask questions rather than complain.

Edit 2: I wanna give you an example I experienced the other day. I was playing 2v2 against a guy who is very active on this forum. He's around rank 150. So he gets MOST of the basics. However he made an incredibly stupid move right at the start of the game by targetting my garrisoned Rear Echelon with his Pio, MG and Gren allowing me to flank his MG with 2 Rifles. That is a typical example of a mistake that could be prevented by just THINKING for one second. But instead of doing some self refleciton he went on a massive rant about how rifles are op.
17 Aug 2021, 13:39 PM
#308
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1


I don't , neither does anyone here in this thread need to provide a replay for you to know that the ST is broken.If you actually play the game you would know the ST is broken.Oh, maybe I forgot that you could just be a run-of-the-mill axis fanboy defending his crutch vehicle, there's no shortage of people like that in this game.


i played with it yesterday. it was easily hardcountered by 2 spreaded at guns and pathfinder who provided los
17 Aug 2021, 13:39 PM
#309
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



i played with it yesterday. it was easily hardcountered by 2 spreaded at guns and pathfinder who provided los



Sounds like a severe L2P issue.
17 Aug 2021, 13:42 PM
#310
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1




Sounds like a severe L2P issue.


i won the game with smoke and flank
17 Aug 2021, 13:45 PM
#311
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

This entire discussion is completely pointless, the ST is cheating at the moment and needs severe nerfs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/p2uv5q/how_can_our_eyes_see_it_if_the_sturmtiger_is_not/
17 Aug 2021, 13:50 PM
#312
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

This entire discussion is completely pointless, the ST is cheating at the moment and needs severe nerfs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/p2uv5q/how_can_our_eyes_see_it_if_the_sturmtiger_is_not/

people just need some of that Seeking juice to adapt to ST. Clearly l2p issue.
17 Aug 2021, 13:52 PM
#313
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

Anyone defending the ST is either a mo*** or just depends on it to win the matches. AVRE needs a similar treatment if it becomes OP. The only saving grace is that AVRE is in a horses*** commander.
You can't have a nuke dispenser that can self spot and shoot beyond the 35 range. Well, if it had 640 hp then sure. But with 1440 hp and 240 armour, yeah, no. Imagine, a vetted ST can shoot up to range 48 and spot to range ~40. Shooting 14 AOE nukes that completely wipe everything in it's AOE.

17 Aug 2021, 14:19 PM
#314
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 197

This entire discussion is completely pointless, the ST is cheating at the moment and needs severe nerfs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompanyOfHeroes/comments/p2uv5q/how_can_our_eyes_see_it_if_the_sturmtiger_is_not/

WTF l2p issue AF.
He doesn't maphack clearly he is boosted
17 Aug 2021, 14:26 PM
#315
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

to the video: it could be that it was a guessed shot. Thats a normal sport to place sandbags and hide. maybe he scouted it, saw it getting built or even listened in fow
17 Aug 2021, 14:40 PM
#316
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

It should still have had to toll closer to give him a response. No boom tube should wipe ftom beyond vision range without obvious shotblocker. Hills clearly dont count.
17 Aug 2021, 15:10 PM
#317
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



why should i discuss l2p issues without even a provided replay?




Stormjager got rekt by the Sturmtiger in this match (https://youtu.be/1pD0qQ3k_8A?t=1030) and I wouldn't call his play low level. He outplayed his opponent and pulled some great moves to counter two Sturmtigers, even if it was all futile.


New Battlegrounds Semi Finals. IncaUna vs Kimbo


tell those guys to l2p. Take a closer look at those games. Just because there are few strats that are supposedly counter ST, does not mean it is fine.

Before creating this thread I just didn't went by my "feeling" but actually took time and asked Duffmann, Siberian, Jibber, Elpern + you get the reaction of KThez, which called it a "Scumtiger". You have majority of the community trolling this unit and outright calling it toxic, casts, data of Elite Armor pickrate, but it is fine, because Paths with 2 at guns counter it. Units got nerfed for much less, like falls with faust or Tiger with Panzer Commander.

I can't come up with justification for COH2 meta, where oneshotting units, that only 2 faction has access to are part of it.

Pls, might as well bring back low scatter B4 and while Balance team are working on it, perhaps give something similar to USF. That would be nice. The dream meta of the game that revolves around unit preservation.
17 Aug 2021, 15:24 PM
#318
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 12:45 PMGiaA


So you define what the game is like at lower levels and when your description no longer fits that's a problem?


No reason to say it like that, absolutely unnecessary. Of course i do not.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 12:45 PMGiaA

The game promotes blobbing at lower skill levels? Well no more of that with the Sturmtiger. Scouting is less relevant? Well maybe it isn't. Makes no sense.


Sorry, I didn't write that right. I didn't want to say that scouting is less relevant. I wanted to say that people don't put the same effort into it and see less relevance where a better player knows that intel is key to victory.

17 Aug 2021, 15:31 PM
#319
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1







tell those guys to l2p. Take a closer look at those games. Just because there are few strats that are supposedly counter ST, does not mean it is fine.

Before creating this thread I just didn't went by my "feeling" but actually took time and asked Duffmann, Siberian, Jibber, Elpern + you get the reaction of KThez, which called it a "Scumtiger". You have majority of the community trolling this unit and outright calling it toxic, casts, data of Elite Armor pickrate, but it is fine, because Paths with 2 at guns counter it. Units got nerfed for much less, like falls with faust or Tiger with Panzer Commander.

I can't come up with justification for COH2 meta, where oneshotting units, that only 2 faction has access to are part of it.

Pls, might as well bring back low scatter B4 and while Balance team are working on it, perhaps give something similar to USF. That would be nice. The dream meta of the game that revolves around unit preservation.


Guess the balance team nerfed Path vision on team weapon for a reason: they could hardcounter the Sturmtiger :D
17 Aug 2021, 15:48 PM
#320
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 13:36 PMGiaA
But you can't balance the game for low level players. As I said it's literally impossible and that's not an exaggeration. It's impossible in the actual sense of the word. Every low level player has a diffent take on any given issue because their takes are rooted in their own personal strengths, weaknesses and preferences. If you fix the game for one person you break it for another. That's why you have to distill some kind of objective criteria for unit strength. Otherwise you have nothing to work with. And the only way to do that is looking at the most optimal play available. I don't undestand how this is so hard to grasp.

You can do the right basics, if...

..all factions need the same micro level
..factions are not artifically restricted in their stock rosters
..factions can compete on an eye level from early to late game

For example it is definitely not the same micro level if one player has a more expensive and more powerful tank while the other player has to build two more squishy tanks which both must be controlled.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 13:36 PMGiaA
Edit 2: I wanna give you an example I experienced the other day. I was playing 2v2 against a guy who is very active on this forum. He's around rank 150. So he gets MOST of the basics. However he made an incredibly stupid move right at the start of the game by targetting my garrisoned Rear Echelon with his Pio, MG and Gren allowing me to flank his MG with 2 Rifles. That is a typical example of a mistake that could be prevented by just THINKING for one second. But instead of doing some self refleciton he went on a massive rant about how rifles are op.

That is a tactical mistake. I'm with you there, you can't balance that of course.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 13:36 PMGiaA
Edit: Donnie is also right about not trying to improve. You have to understand that low level player balance concerns are just absurd to people who know how to play the game. It's like me arguing in chess forums that the Queen is overpowered. It would be way more advantageous for the thread creators to ask questions rather than complain.

The Queen surely is op, but because the game is symmetrical with the exception of one taking the first turn, it is even. ;-)
It took me ages and countless fully lost squads/weapon teams to learn how to dodge a Walking Stuka somehow reliable. This example is for teamgames of course since fast Walking stuka in 1vs1 means to give up medium tank support. In teamgames Walking Stuka is incredibly early on the field and you can't be sure where it is firing once you hear the sound, because you have allies with vulnerable target zones too. So it comes down to dodging the thing as good as possible. If you compare it with Katiusha it is harder to aim too, but has incedible wiping potential at lower skill levels while Katiusha is way more consistent in damage across skill levels without causing many wipes. Katiusha is a good example for a overall well balanced unit, Walking stuka as an "all or nothing" unit is just not.

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Last Tuesday, 02:53 AM
Lady Xenarra: Does anyone else think that USF needs buffs? It feels like they’re on life support sometimes
Last Tuesday, 02:36 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone Ahh I missed that memo. I still think its a bad decision though. Adds frustration for players and isnt gonna make them that much money
27 Mar 2025, 15:46 PM
Rosbone: It is also good they left it free until after the free to play weekend. Points for that.
27 Mar 2025, 09:34 AM
Rosbone: But I agree, the cost to get a full decent Coh game pushing $115 US is not the best idea. Especially when it needs so much more work for casuals.
27 Mar 2025, 09:32 AM
Rosbone: To be fair, it was a thank you to early fans right? They said it was not free for long and it would become a pay DLC at some point.
27 Mar 2025, 09:30 AM
Willy Pete: Re-releasing free DLC so they can charge new players money for it. Brilliant marketing strategy :clap:
27 Mar 2025, 04:31 AM
Soheil: Coh2 still broken server ?
25 Mar 2025, 18:27 PM
Rosbone: Congrats to Relic. Looks like Coh3 has finally usurped Coh2 s the popular Coh. You smell terrific. :snfQuinn:.
24 Mar 2025, 02:46 AM
Nickbn: and again someone else replies. I mean come on guys. Give @adamírcz a chance
22 Mar 2025, 14:00 PM
Willy Pete: @Nickbn you didn't ask a question, and this is a chat box...
20 Mar 2025, 13:11 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone it's incredibly rude to speak on someone elses behalf, especially when a question is directly adressed to them. I understand your passion for the subject at hand but I want to hear from him.
20 Mar 2025, 10:16 AM
Rosbone: @Nickbn No, I am just saying people should not be using any Relic owned forum since they have proven they ban anyone who says true things about Coh3.
18 Mar 2025, 19:01 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone do you speak on his behalf? I didn't know. In that case keep us updated please.
18 Mar 2025, 16:47 PM
Rosbone: #RelicModdedEchoChamber
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
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16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Nickbn: @adamírcz might be a better idea to voice this to relic directly than to voice it here, in a shoutbox of a nearly deade fansite #justsaying...
16 Mar 2025, 16:36 PM
webdesign-muenchen-w: @Rosbone it is sick
14 Mar 2025, 22:09 PM
aerafield: @adamírcz aren't the first two disconnects free every day?
14 Mar 2025, 19:26 PM
Rosbone: It is so unlike Relic to punish its fans and community.
14 Mar 2025, 12:07 PM
adamírcz: So, I just got a leaver penalty without even getting onto the loading screen because of the game disconnecting, bravo Relic
14 Mar 2025, 10:45 AM
Rosbone: It is an indicator of the very short sighted capitalist view that plagues any company where leadership does not understand the product.
13 Mar 2025, 20:00 PM
Rosbone: They dont care about Coh3 or Coh in general. They are just trying to grab cash by ripping off the small user base they have.
13 Mar 2025, 19:58 PM
Rosbone: Just making mistake after mistake after mistake.
13 Mar 2025, 19:57 PM
Rosbone: It is clear they crapped out an unfinished game. And are now barely supporting it as they make new smaller games. Coh3 is stillborn. It will be meh for at least another 2-4 years. Meaning they killed the whole franchise instead of growing it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:56 PM
Rosbone: For a thing they could fix in minutes. Literally minutes.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: If I did play coh3 and was mainly a skirmish player, I would be pissed and probably stop playing. And it has been like this since release. Why? I would not tell my friends to buy a game I am not even playing. Lost sales and angered users.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: I am just saddened how Relic keeps hurting themselves by not fixing 5 minute things like menus. Why anger users with stuff that could be fixed in minutes???
13 Mar 2025, 19:50 PM
Rosbone: I was wondering why people think I was raging. I think it was when I said "because coh3 sucks so bad". That was not my opinion. Just a general feel from top players/streamers. I dont play Coh3 and have NO opinion of it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:48 PM
OKSpitfire: You can rage as often as you like btw, you usually manage to make it pretty funny.
12 Mar 2025, 11:18 AM
Rosbone: So it was a systemic failure across multiple disciplines and check points.
12 Mar 2025, 04:30 AM
Rosbone: Knowing how companies work, I imagine a new hire making the menus. The API they are using is complicated and things were hard to figure out. But at some point QA or management should have addressed these things. Usually within 6 months of starting.
12 Mar 2025, 04:29 AM
Rosbone: @theekvn I dont hate Coh3 or Relic. I just dont understand how you work on Coh3 for like 7 years and the menu system is worse than if a Programming 101 student made it. Feel free to explain it to me.
12 Mar 2025, 04:07 AM
theekvn: + 33% dmg rear hit was best deal ever.
12 Mar 2025, 04:00 AM
theekvn: KT just need fuel debuf from 15% to 50%, Ele arc of fire- aim time improve and they are good to go
12 Mar 2025, 03:59 AM
theekvn: and please Rosbone,I know you hate Coh3 to the bone due to your drama with relic, Still, Can you give a proper point of view instead of raging ?.
12 Mar 2025, 03:54 AM
theekvn: you rather go 76 to unity Whizbang 2.0 or go home.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: also US tier 4 is 145f and Sherman pen 140 nerf is too much.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: Whizbang lock behind CP, meanwhile stuka is techtree progress
12 Mar 2025, 03:51 AM
KoRneY: @aerafield It's possible that it is underpriced for what it is capable of now, no need to go full retard and take it immediately as a massive problem. It costs 60 more MP than a pz.3 and in 2v2 the barrage can be quite strong.
07 Mar 2025, 19:14 PM
OKSpitfire: I do like that they made the Stuka more expensive instead of nerfing it into the ground though. Found it pretty unsatisfying to use before that buff a while back....
06 Mar 2025, 16:35 PM
aerafield: USF already is by far the shittiest faction in terms of countering blobbing and turtling, now they supposedly have one overtuned tool locked behind a BG and it's immediately a massive problem?
06 Mar 2025, 13:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: I think post-2.0 Whizbang buffs, the price is too low esp since the Stuka got nerfed in cost too. Speaking of which, how exactly is one supposed to successfully dive this Sherman in disguise? Med tank spam running into SSFs?
06 Mar 2025, 12:13 PM
OKSpitfire: A powerful, doctrinal unit that outperforms stock stuff? Colour me shocked! :P
06 Mar 2025, 10:49 AM
Willy Pete: Cool you wanna lose your stock lategame arty too then?
06 Mar 2025, 03:20 AM
Lady Xenarra: WTB Whizzbang for DAK instead of Stuka, 5 fuel cheape, 60MP more expensive and next to impossible to dive. :rofl:
05 Mar 2025, 20:27 PM
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus.
04 Mar 2025, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope.
04 Mar 2025, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get.
04 Mar 2025, 02:53 AM
Soheil: Coh2 is dead , full of map hackers , and lelic knows that but ...
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