The state of Sturmtiger

Patch notes:

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Here are reasoning behind these changes by balance team:

Part 1

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Part 2

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Veterancy

Sturmtiger
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AVRE
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So in essence just by looking at stats here are key advantages of each vehicle:

Sturmtiger
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AVRE
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But since AVRE didn't got similar adjustments as ST did, it still might undershoot from time to time.

Example of undershooting AVRE

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Also here are several screenshots to show what exactly 40 and 45 range with seflspot looks like + AVRE as a reference point:

AVRE normal 35 range (most units in the game have 35 sight range)

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Sturmtiger

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18.07 Updated the stats table to include max range AOE for ST

Here I'll show some pickrate data across the ladder pre and post patch with addition of data including last two week. Sorry, 3v3 is not included
Special thank you to creator of https://coh2stats.com/ website. You are the best!

1v1
pre patch
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post patch
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2v2

prepatch
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post patch
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4v4
prepatch
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post patch
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As you can see the pickrate increased substantially. Pretty sure the culprit is the hero of this thread.

This thing is completely broken, probably the most broken unit atm.

Don't forget that the ST also has 14 max AoE

Great post and comprehensive head-to-head comparison.

All things considered I would say the unit is overall good to very good, depending on the game mode it's used in, but not OP.

In terms of effectiveness the ST is probably on par with the AVRE in most areas, give or take a few.

As you've already pointed out its biggest advantage is the slightly greater range that, in conjunction with the improved projectile collision, allows the ST to engage - and often wipe - units from beyond their range of vision. The AVRE on the other hand can't do the same unless hiding behind a sight blocker. However, this is somewhat remedied by the fact that retreat wipes are a little easier to pull off with the AVRE as a result of the lower aim time and, most importantly, having a turret.

Other than that the lethality of both units is essentially the same; the ST has quite a bit less OHK range than the AVRE but makes up for that with the vastly greater max AoE (14 vs 8 m), which lets it nuke wounded squads a lot easier with more margin for error with regards to aiming.

With respect to the pick rate I'd say the recent spike in popularity is probably more a temporary phenomenon, just as with the new B-4. Not to mention that other parts of the Elite Armored make the doctrine a solid pick regardless of the ST being called in in every game or not. Hence I think it remains to be seen if this surge in popularity will last and if this is truly an indicator for the ST overperforming.

Just bring back abandon or make it at least so that you can't start reloading while in combat

The reload should be interrupted by enemy
direct fire (but not artillery) if possible, simulating the crew not being able to expose their selves and reload with the crane.
The only issue is how frequently it can fire because the only downside to starting a reload is it slowing down. The rest is ok. It's easy enough to avoid it with proper recon under normal conditions. It's quite powerful when the map presents sightblockers taht it can now shoots over with reliably (see Langreskaya) but I can't see a way to avoid that.

regarding the ability to reload on the move, i guess it would be justified to revert it to requiring the ST to be stationary again, if the general consensus is that the unit requires a nerf. vet 4 (5?) could give back reload on the move with a significant speed penalty, just how it used to be a couple of patches ago.
that way the ST would have a clear weakness that could be exploited, even with tools that are usually rather inefficient vs mobile artillery pieces (i.e. a well-coordinated recon/offmap combo).

Don't forget that the ST also has 14 max AoE

Does it mean that it deals damage up to 14 models? Could you please elaborate?

Great post and comprehensive head-to-head comparison.

All things considered I would say the unit is overall good to very good, depending on the game mode it's used in, but not OP.

In terms of effectiveness the ST is probably on par with the AVRE in most areas, give or take a few.

As you've already pointed out its biggest advantage is the slightly greater range that, in conjunction with the improved projectile collision, allows the ST to engage - and often wipe - units from beyond their range of vision. The AVRE on the other hand can't do the same unless hiding behind a sight blocker. However, this is somewhat remedied by the fact that retreat wipes are a little easier to pull off with the AVRE as a result of the lower aim time and, most importantly, having a turret.

Other than that the lethality of both units is essentially the same; the ST has quite a bit less OHK range than the AVRE but makes up for that with the vastly greater max AoE (14 vs 8 m), which lets it nuke wounded squads a lot easier with more margin for error with regards to aiming.

With respect to the pick rate I'd say the recent spike in popularity is probably more a temporary phenomenon, just as with the new B-4. Not to mention that other parts of the Elite Armored make the doctrine a solid pick regardless of the ST being called in in every game or not. Hence I think it remains to be seen if this surge in popularity will last and if this is truly an indicator for the ST overperforming.

The issue is the range, amount of health and VET4 bonuses. With AVRE you atleast will see it most of the time, and it is also still somewhat inconsistent (see screenshots below "Example of undershooting AVRE"). It used to be high risk high reward unit. Seems like the "high risk" part was removed, while high reward part was not adjusted. For example it is still possible to build both ST and KT.

I asked few streamers (The Angry Dutchman, Jibber, Elpern, Siberian and Baoliang) and the answers were ranging from "batsh*t broken" to "extremely strong". I would not have created a thread, if there was an absence of consensus about the unit in the first place.

1. way to tanky (1440 HP at vet 2).
2. is able to shoot from the fog of war with selfspotting at vet4. At least with AVRE you can see where it is shooting.
3. It comes too early and already paired with a great doctrine that counters high hitpoint armor with HEAT rounds, making units like comet, t34-85, E8 etc less effective. And good luck even diving on that thing, considering how the game punishes such moves with mines, fausts and AT guns.

The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood and I'd like to have fun while playing it.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.

Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one

So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.

Does it mean that it deals damage up to 14 models? Could you please elaborate?

Basically this means there is a 4th distance threshold for the AoE of a projectile (AoE n/m/f/max). For some units, such as the AVRE, the far and max AoE radii are the same, for others the max AoE radius is significantly larger (e.g. the ST with an AoE far and max radius of 8 and 14 m, respectively).

The issue is the range, amount of health and VET4 bonuses. With AVRE you atleast will see it most of the time, and it is also still somewhat inconsistent (see screenshots below "Example of undershooting AVRE"). It used to be high risk high reward unit. Seems like the "high risk" part was removed, while high reward part was not adjusted. For example it is still possible to build both ST and KT.

I asked few streamers (The Angry Dutchman, Jibber, Elpern, Siberian and Baoliang) and the answers were ranging from "batsh*t broken" to "extremely strong". I would not have created a thread, if there was an absence of consensus about the unit in the first place.

1. way to tanky (1440 HP at vet 2).
2. is able to shoot from the fog of war with selfspotting at vet4. At least with AVRE you can see where it is shooting.
3. It comes too early and already paired with a great doctrine that counters high hitpoint armor with HEAT rounds, making units like comet, t34-85, E8 etc less effective. And good luck even diving on that thing, considering how the game punishes such moves with mines, fausts and AT guns.

The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood and I'd like to have fun while playing it.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.

Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one

Fair point about the range advantage, and I agree this can cause a lot of frustration via basically uncounterable wipes. Obviously the range could go down to 35 again to partially solve this, but that still wouldn't change the 'wipey' nature of either the ST or AVRE. A rework in this area would require a complete overhaul of how these large-caliber weapon systems work in-game, and I'd wager it would prove extremely difficult to tone down the power level of the ST, AVRE, B-4, etc. and keep them relevant at the same time. On top of that I'm not even sure if there's a general consensus that wipey units are strictly against CoH2's core philosophy to begin with.

So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence?

Does it mean that it deals damage up to 14 models? Could you please elaborate?


The issue is the range, amount of health and VET4 bonuses. With AVRE you atleast will see it most of the time, and it is also still somewhat inconsistent (see screenshots below "Example of undershooting AVRE"). It used to be high risk high reward unit. Seems like the "high risk" part was removed, while high reward part was not adjusted. For example it is still possible to build both ST and KT.

I asked few streamers (The Angry Dutchman, Jibber, Elpern, Siberian and Baoliang) and the answers were ranging from "batsh*t broken" to "extremely strong". I would not have created a thread, if there was an absence of consensus about the unit in the first place.

1. way to tanky (1440 HP at vet 2).
2. is able to shoot from the fog of war with selfspotting at vet4. At least with AVRE you can see where it is shooting.
3. It comes too early and already paired with a great doctrine that counters high hitpoint armor with HEAT rounds, making units like comet, t34-85, E8 etc less effective. And good luck even diving on that thing, considering how the game punishes such moves with mines, fausts and AT guns.

The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood and I'd like to have fun while playing it.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.

Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one

So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.

Your posts ignore a few key aspects

1) The ISU comparison doesn't make much sense, because the ISU has actual armor and field presence, and will deal damage more consistently on top of being effective against all targets on its own. On the contrary the Sturmtiger was specialized to only be effective on armor with a direct improbable hit, after which it will still require at least (base medium HP) a direct hit.
It's overall easier to counter and punish a Sturmtiger, that it is to punish an ISU, which makes your statement about the Sturmtiger not involving risk wrong. This is especially true if we consider the range advantage at guns and tank destroyers have over the Sturmtiger. There's a reason the ISU is the only Heavy TD viable in 1vs1.

2) The ST, Avre and B4 being called NOW toxic is nonsense. I have had a brand new Panzer 4 being tracked by a brand new B4 that never fired and oneshot it because of a spotting flare that could barely be seen. I also had medium oneshotted by a Sturmtiger behind a sightblocker. Those tools are now more consistent but you will never lose mediums and heavy armor without any counterplay because your opponent clicked at the right time a single button

3) Both Avre and ST come around a time where players have various recon options. Even at their highest range, there's loads of tools that can track down those vehicles, that are loud.
The Sturmtiger may need to rotate on top of that

4) The Sturmtiger getting 10% additional armor means it has 240 armor at best. It's unlikely that anything will bounce from it. Durability through large HP pool is a double edged sword that requires large repair times if the player can't contain the received damage. When you factor in that 2 properly used at guns at their max range (60) can fire 3 volleys before it can even fire to them the Sturmtiger becomes only really effective when used as part of combined arms, as it should be.

Imo both AVRE and ST could see:
An increase in CP so that they are not the first armour to be be built.

A hard cap on entities killed designed more to destroy fortification and less getting wipes.

As for ST I would rather see it in moved to another commander.

Imo units like THE ST and avre, b4 as well, that have these high impact weapons need more economic impact than just upkeep. A munitions cost per shot would go a long way to ensuring that saturation isn't an issue. Vet is so important that being able to erase it should require more than a bit of MP in upkeep beyond the initial acquisition

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence?

OK (decent), as if level of performance, so basically I'm good with unit being meme like an old B4 used to be, but nowhere near meta. Perhaps unit should have some gimmick while reloading, like being stunned after getting hit during reloading and thus resetting it, or having incoming damage increased during that phase. Perhaps reduce range from 40-45****, to 35-40**** and remove self spotting at vet 4, reduce health by 160 etc.

Your posts ignore a few key aspects

1) The ISU comparison doesn't make much sense, because the ISU has actual armor and field presence, and will deal damage more consistently on top of being effective against all targets on its own. On the contrary the Sturmtiger was specialized to only be effective on armor with a direct improbable hit, after which it will still require at least (base medium HP) a direct hit.
It's overall easier to counter and punish a Sturmtiger, that it is to punish an ISU, which makes your statement about the Sturmtiger not involving risk wrong. This is especially true if we consider the range advantage at guns and tank destroyers have over the Sturmtiger.

First it is purely state of the meta comparison, not the unit comparison.
Second 2 rax into ST, or 1 rack, ST and JT if you struggle with tank destroyers. AT guns are not a problem for ST but the other way around. ST can pretty much drive to AT tanking shots and procced to wreck it. Seen in happen with Jabber, happened to me. The situation is far from ideal lmao

2) The ST, Avre and B4 being called NOW toxic is nonsense. I have had a brand new Panzer 4 being tracked by a brand new B4 that never fired and oneshot it because of a spotting flare that could barely be seen. I also had medium oneshotted by a Sturmtiger behind a sightblocker. Those tools are now more consistent but you will never lose mediums and heavy armor without any counterplay because your opponent clicked at the right time a single button

You cannot one-shot with neither B4 nor ST. B4 brings 640 unit to 240HP, ST to 60HP.

3) Both Avre and ST come around a time where players have various recon options. Even at their highest range, there's loads of tools that can track down those vehicles, that are loud.
The Sturmtiger may need to rotate on top of that

4) The Sturmtiger getting 10% additional armor means it has 240 armor at best. It's unlikely that anything will bounce from it. Durability through large HP pool is a double edged sword that requires large repair times if the player can't contain the received damage. When you factor in that 2 properly used at guns at their max range (60) can fire 3 volleys before it can even fire to them the Sturmtiger becomes only really effective when used as part of combined arms, as it should be.

They are loud, but ST still have more range then most units have sight, which makes it hard to predict who might get hit, hence nerve racking.

Health is more preferable then armor, especially with Axis, since TDs have plenty of penetration. IMO t34-85 will be always ahead of p4-j, precisely because of that. It is a reliable metric that you don't have to gamble on and effective regardless of penetration. Also 1280(1440) health pool means you need 2 (3) shots to pen before landing a successful snare (good luck killing it without one)

It would sound really easy to counter an ST, if it was like Tiger or KT that need time to do damage, so they are exposed longer to AT fire. But this does not work that well if the tank literally nukes stuff. And again, AT guns and tank destroyers should see ST before shooting it. It needs ~4 seconds after stopping to deal damage and then it just backs off.

45 range lol so op. everyone spams this now

the sturmtiger is broken as fuck.

It has a massive HP pool, so it is capable of driving up to an AT gun, shoot, and retreat, with no risk whatsoever.
Better damage and range than the AVRE, it also suppresses squads.
FoW range, and shit tons of recon (the very underrated infrared halftrack, and kubel maphack) help it be devastating at wiping out upcoming enemy infantry.
Fow range, again.
It can also be paired with the king tiger, for whatever fucking reason.
Oh, did i mention that the fucking gun destroyed critical DOESN'T stop it from firing?


This doesn't deserve an essay to write, why is this vehicle not 200 fuel AT LEAST? how will axis players justify the current sturmtiger? will they walk their own infantry units into AVREs to give us an illusion?

The Strumtiger is very bad.

this is a completely biased thread. u did not mention AVRE got a turret anywhere in ur comparison (please correct if i am wrong, but i didnt see any mention of the turret). this is a big game changer as u dont need to rotate ur entire tank to aim, which makes the targeting WAY more response hence easier wipes.
this does not even take into account the crap commander abilities in the doc.
so now the axis finally gets a half working blob deleter and its deemed OP??the shell even gets blocked by trees for gods sake. as i mentioned in other posts losing units to ST is pure l2p issue.
anyone who says the ST is OP obvs havent tried the AVRE or the new B4.
and y dont i see threads about nerf AVRE??? forum is completely ally biased.

As you can see the pickrate increased substantially. Pretty sure the culprit is the hero of this thread.


have u thought about the pick rate increase due to how absurd the B4 is in grp games??

Does it mean that it deals damage up to 14 models? Could you please elaborate?


The issue is the range, amount of health and VET4 bonuses. With AVRE you atleast will see it most of the time, and it is also still somewhat inconsistent (see screenshots below "Example of undershooting AVRE"). It used to be high risk high reward unit. Seems like the "high risk" part was removed, while high reward part was not adjusted. For example it is still possible to build both ST and KT.

I asked few streamers (The Angry Dutchman, Jibber, Elpern, Siberian and Baoliang) and the answers were ranging from "batsh*t broken" to "extremely strong". I would not have created a thread, if there was an absence of consensus about the unit in the first place.

1. way to tanky (1440 HP at vet 2).
2. is able to shoot from the fog of war with selfspotting at vet4. At least with AVRE you can see where it is shooting.
3. It comes too early and already paired with a great doctrine that counters high hitpoint armor with HEAT rounds, making units like comet, t34-85, E8 etc less effective. And good luck even diving on that thing, considering how the game punishes such moves with mines, fausts and AT guns.

The unit is toxic and nerve racking to play against, especially vs double rax build. Nerve racking and toxic destroys the mood and I'd like to have fun while playing it.
This is similar situation like with ISU, that used to be completely broken (in teamgames including 2v2), except with ST you need to pay 5x attention during a game, or else you have a good chance of losing it.

Units that are in the conflict with the core idea of COH2 as an RTS (unit preservation) should not be highly effective or nowhere near meta, regardless of which faction owns one

So pretty much I'm ok with AVRE and ST at any level below OK and hoping a lot of people share my sentiment.

r u kidding me?? now we r taking about vet 4 vet 5 bonus?? how much baby sitting u gotta do to to even get the ST to that stage. if the enemy got a ST and KT u r prob getting roflstomped anyways, pretty sure having a ST and KT isnt the issue here. do u even have any idea how much pop cap a ST and KT takes??
srsly the ST is OP now??