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russian armor

sandbag behind flag is awful mechanic.

19 Jun 2021, 12:51 PM
#1
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

Let be honest .
placed sandbag behind flag are completely unusable/block attack-line form other side.
This deal too many damage to opposite in early game.

19 Jun 2021, 13:10 PM
#2
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 12:51 PMvgfgff
Let be honest .
placed sandbag behind flag are completely unusable/block attack-line form other side.
This deal too many damage to opposite in early game.



It's the flag that is a terrible mechanic. The game would be better without them.
19 Jun 2021, 14:33 PM
#3
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I remember playing before every single squad that was supposed to fight could also lay down green cover every where it wanted for maximum combat effeciency. Back in those days the map actually mattered, having to use the cover provided made the game far more dynamic than "a fight around the flag! Green cover plinkfest it is!"

They should perhaps look to coh1 for inspiration and make bags cost manpower....
19 Jun 2021, 15:36 PM
#4
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

They should perhaps look to coh1 for inspiration and make bags cost manpower....


I wouldn't necessarily disagree with sandbag nerfs in principle, but how is vCoH an inspiration for this? They were free in vCoH too and also buildable by certain mainline infantry like Volks and Grens stock, or Riflemen with one of the three doctrines.
https://companyofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Sand_Bags
19 Jun 2021, 15:58 PM
#5
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I wouldn't necessarily disagree with sandbag nerfs in principle, but how is vCoH an inspiration for this? They were free in vCoH too and also buildable by certain mainline infantry like Volks and Grens stock, or Riflemen with one of the three doctrines.
https://companyofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Sand_Bags

Its been a long time since I've played vcoh but I recall sandbags requiring manpower something like 5mp?. Perhaps I'm misremembering?

AT any rate if I am wrong I'll happily take credit for the idea myself! A mp cost to defenses could hopefully add some more thought to throwing them up and instead I hope lead to more dynamic engagement using the map that we're present in the early days of coh2
Pip
19 Jun 2021, 16:03 PM
#6
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


Its been a long time since I've played vcoh but I recall sandbags requiring manpower something like 5mp?. Perhaps I'm misremembering?

AT any rate if I am wrong I'll happily take credit for the idea myself! A mp cost to defenses could hopefully add some more thought to throwing them up and instead I hope lead to more dynamic engagement using the map that we're present in the early days of coh2


Giving them a cost of 5-10 MP would honestly be so negligible that it wouldn't be worth doing. How many sandbags do you actually create throughout the game?

The best (but pretty much impossible) solution would be either a removal of sandbags from mainlines (though this would require more work than one might think for OKW and SOV, UKF might actually take it in stride if they got RE's as their first unit, rather than a section), or sandbags providing sub-green cover protection, the latter of which would mean that green cover extant on the battlefield would still be a superior choice to player-built cover.

I wonder if making Sandbags deteriorate into yellow cover after a certain amount of "use" would help?
19 Jun 2021, 17:33 PM
#7
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 13:10 PMGrumpy


It's the flag that is a terrible mechanic. The game would be better without them.


The flag mechanic define Company of Heroes, and how making it different from other RTS.
I doubt COH2 will revert into COH1 capping style.

COH1 never cost manpower building sandbag, sandbag behind flag also exist in COH1.
Here are the difference:

1) You cannot build and cap at the same time
2) You cannot cap and fight at the same time (unless you risk losing 1 guy FPS)
3) If you stop enemy capping a non-finish point and cap it yourself, the point will be instantly neutralized
4) There is no capping circle stopping your enemy troops capping.
5) ATG cannot cap, MG mortar sniper cannot cap and fight at the same time
19 Jun 2021, 18:41 PM
#8
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

tbh i never like the sandbags on flags either. im down for some kind of change
19 Jun 2021, 21:48 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 16:03 PMPip


Giving them a cost of 5-10 MP would honestly be so negligible that it wouldn't be worth doing. How many sandbags do you actually create throughout the game?

in vCoH the economy was different. 5mp there was a more than it is here. Any value could be applied

The best (but pretty much impossible) solution would be either a removal of sandbags from mainlines (though this would require more work than one might think for OKW and SOV, UKF might actually take it in stride if they got RE's as their first unit, rather than a section), or sandbags providing sub-green cover protection, the latter of which would mean that green cover extant on the battlefield would still be a superior choice to player-built cover.

I wonder if making Sandbags deteriorate into yellow cover after a certain amount of "use" would help?

I'm not sure how useful yellow bags would be frankly. I'd sooner them just be made less accessible or take something more than JUST time
19 Jun 2021, 23:53 PM
#10
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

They just need to remove pathing from points (Meaning you can just walk through the points). This would not only help with vehicle pathing but also with things like Sandbags behind VP points.
20 Jun 2021, 10:25 AM
#11
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 268

Maybe restict sandbags from being build in capture areas
20 Jun 2021, 11:39 AM
#12
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 956

OKW kinda need sandbags to not be walked over by Allied mainlines, UKF sort of similar in that regard though they have T0 Vickers...many times keeping the flag/point would have been completely impossible early game without sandbags. In any case the build time nerf already heavily reduced the amount of sandbags you'd see. If they've had long enough to build a sandbag up, they could have put several mines down in that time as a 'surprise' or other nastiness.
20 Jun 2021, 11:40 AM
#13
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

Maybe restict sandbags from being build in capture areas

It doesn't change anything.
20 Jun 2021, 16:22 PM
#14
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

I was proposing back in the day, that sandbags just should take damage from small arms.

Game already has such mechanic. For example, UKF mortar pit is giving you cover if you stand behind it. You will have full benifit of green cover, but the mortar pit itself will be taking damage from enemy shooting at your inf and hitting mortar pit in process.

This would be a perfect solution imo. With it sandbags will be degrading over time after each engagement and you would have to either repair them or later on rebuild them since they will be eventually destoyed.

The only thing that should be done - make them non-targetable by inf without flames\AT weapons, to prevent players focus fire them with blobs.

And speaking of sandbags behind points. I belive size of non-buildable area around the flag could be easily increased, this will at least alow enemy to use your sandbags, with enouth given space.
20 Jun 2021, 16:40 PM
#15
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

I suspect that would make mining the point impossible, for better or worse.

More stuff destroying bags seems like a solid idea, but it might require ysing trenches instead. I believe damage to Pit is due to garrison mechanics.
20 Jun 2021, 17:23 PM
#16
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

OKW kinda need sandbags to not be walked over by Allied mainlines, UKF sort of similar in that regard though they have T0 Vickers...many times keeping the flag/point would have been completely impossible early game without sandbags. In any case the build time nerf already heavily reduced the amount of sandbags you'd see. If they've had long enough to build a sandbag up, they could have put several mines down in that time as a 'surprise' or other nastiness.


build time doesn't not impact anything when you still able to build sandbag while capturing a flag.
especially OKW you can use strumpioneer to push enemy while volk building a sandbag.
20 Jun 2021, 17:39 PM
#17
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

I suspect that would make mining the point impossible, for better or worse.


Well mining on top of the flag itself wont be possible, but you will still be able to mine in the flag zone, not to mention that, if its increased it should be increased by about 0.5-1 of its corrent size, so it wont affect mines that much anyway.

I believe damage to Pit is due to garrison mechanics.

It might be. But a filler garrison can be created for sandbags, I think you can disallow units to enter the garrison anyway given to a specific entity.
20 Jun 2021, 17:54 PM
#18
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1



I wouldn't necessarily disagree with sandbag nerfs in principle, but how is vCoH an inspiration for this? They were free in vCoH too and also buildable by certain mainline infantry like Volks and Grens stock, or Riflemen with one of the three doctrines.
https://companyofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Sand_Bags


COH1 is not COH2. There is a sandbag problem in COH2 that COH1 never had because of the nature of the capping system under which the two games operate.

Please reference
https://www.coh2.org/topic/107710/sandbags-nerfed-enough-nope

There are a bunch of interesting suggestions under this thread to solve/mitigate the current problem, not just the ones I put forward.
20 Jun 2021, 19:11 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

I guess if Relic does not want to remove sandbag from mainlines infantries one could change the cover they provide to yellow.

Engineers could have a separate version that provided green cover.

20 Jun 2021, 19:28 PM
#20
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I was proposing back in the day, that sandbags just should take damage from small arms.

Game already has such mechanic. For example, UKF mortar pit is giving you cover if you stand behind it. You will have full benifit of green cover, but the mortar pit itself will be taking damage from enemy shooting at your inf and hitting mortar pit in process.

This would be a perfect solution imo. With it sandbags will be degrading over time after each engagement and you would have to either repair them or later on rebuild them since they will be eventually destoyed.

The only thing that should be done - make them non-targetable by inf without flames\AT weapons, to prevent players focus fire them with blobs.

And speaking of sandbags behind points. I belive size of non-buildable area around the flag could be easily increased, this will at least alow enemy to use your sandbags, with enouth given space.


Aren't most non MGs small arm fire only visuals?
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