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E8 is still trash

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jagd wölfe
1 Jul 2021, 08:42 AM
#141
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jul 2021, 08:13 AMthedarkarmadillo

There will never ever ever EVER be a viable, balanced "alternative" to the Jackson in the jacksons state. It is quite literally impossible. There is zero scenarios that the Jackson won't be the best AT option.
There is no NEED for a front line AT tank and that's the biggest part of the E8s problem, that and the 2 other AT Sherman's and the m10... Each and every single USF AT option is an inferior choice to the Jackson full stop.

Even a Panther clone will lose out because why Duke it iut with the enemy when you can more reliably snipe them for cheaper? You arnt losing anything in terms of mobility like the other 60 range TDs, nor durability. There's nothing left wanting so there is no room to bother with an alternative.

Fair point. A mobility nerf to the Jackson is long due anyway.
I think the 75% moving accuracy bonus for all vehicles should have also been removed long ago, made a Flanking Speed bonus and given to the M10 and Easy 8, or maybe keep it just for the Jackson if it needs it after a mobility nerf
The Jackson is good at everything but bouncing shots, something no anti heavy 60 range tank destroyer can do anyway, it also shouldn't be more accurate while chased down because it deters the usage of Blitz Panzer IV as counterplay, making the Jackson overly versatile against any threat

You are right on the Jackson making the other choices redundant
The new M10 is far from bad, at least from a 1vs1 standpoint with its timing and mobility, but the Jackson is just too good and why pay munitions to counter a possible Tiger?

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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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jagd wölfe
2 Jul 2021, 12:26 PM
#142
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

I have been playing some matches with Easy 8, and its AI dps doesn't seem bad, even without the 50 cal upgrade, it could realibly bring 1 or 2 models at most shots.
A pair of vet 2 Easy 8 is a nice Hunting pack in 1vs1, complements well enough LT builds, especially against OKW Panzer IV. I still don't know if it's better than 76mm Sherman because I have not played Mechanized post nerf yet
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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GoforGiantsV3
2 Jul 2021, 13:44 PM
#143
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 87

I think giving 'Focused gunnery' could be given without removing Radio net XD
Then Easy Eight could be more cooler one.
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Klement Pikhtura
2 Jul 2021, 18:32 PM
#144
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

I don't know why people want it to be a panther, personally I would like E8 to be more like a comet, but of course not a clone. Maybe a cheaper with inferior armor and penetration, but with similar AOE.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Jul 2021, 19:32 PM
#145
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jul 2021, 08:13 AMthedarkarmadillo

There will never ever ever EVER be a viable, balanced "alternative" to the Jackson in the jacksons state. It is quite literally impossible. There is zero scenarios that the Jackson won't be the best AT option.

If all the urban maps didn't get constantly removed this wouldn't be true at all. Old 2v2 maps like Dusseldorf and Trois Ponts were great for E8 cause the Jackson was mostly useless on those maps

This is the age old problem. The Jackson has to be that good because Relic decided to give USF by far the worst final tier. And the fewest stock AT vehicle options
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Jul 2021, 19:46 PM
#146
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 19:32 PMSkysTheLimit

If all the urban maps didn't get constantly removed this wouldn't be true at all. Old 2v2 maps like Dusseldorf and Trois Ponts were great for E8 cause the Jackson was mostly useless on those maps

This is the age old problem. The Jackson has to be that good because Relic decided to give USF by far the worst final tier. And the fewest stock AT vehicle options

Even in an urban environment the Jackson is no slouch. It's still the best of the 60 range TDs because it can run and gun.

I disagree that the Jackson has to be so all encompassing. USF has many tools, but they have all been ignored in favor of the Jackson. Elite zooks imo should be on officers, the Stuart was initially supposed to be an AT support tank. HEAT on the pak howi. Sherman AP shells could easily be buffed as well in exchange for even weaker AI on them (radius is only slightly smaller than other all in one tanks for example)

There are options, BUT the Jackson is there so we've just made it the only viable option and thusly massively efficient to the point of making doctrinal options redundant


Frankly they should swap the m10 and the Jackson.
Bump the m10 up to 60 range and tune the gun to fight heavies and not mediums. But lower the turret rotation (crank powered turret).

Bring the Jackson back to a super mobile high reward but squishy and require micro again.

Then you have the m10 with weaknesses that allows room for more mobile (as in turret) Sherman's to have a niche. The Jackson doctrinally has a place as a hard hitting glass cannon again that would synergies well with the 105 Sherman and its beefy AI. Everything has a place and a playstyle and usf isn't left in the cold.

Additionally 57mm vet needs looked at to bring it more in line with other AT guns

Perhaps some sort of economy upgrade that reduces munitions costs of stock shit by a bit with full tech wouldn't go a miss to keeping USF competitive and unique as well.

There's things that could have been done, but the path taken has made the Jackson too much to balance other options without breaking something.
#stalinwept
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SkysTheLimit
2 Jul 2021, 20:08 PM
#147
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 19:46 PMthedarkarmadillo

Even in an urban environment the Jackson is no slouch. It's still the best of the 60 range TDs because it can run and gun.

That's not really saying much cause all 3 of them suffer quite a bit on those maps

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 19:46 PMthedarkarmadillo

I disagree that the Jackson has to be so all encompassing. USF has many tools, but they have all been ignored in favor of the Jackson. Elite zooks imo should be on officers, the Stuart was initially supposed to be an AT support tank. HEAT on the pak howi. Sherman AP shells could easily be buffed as well in exchange for even weaker AI on them (radius is only slightly smaller than other all in one tanks for example)

There are options, BUT the Jackson is there so we've just made it the only viable option and thusly massively efficient to the point of making doctrinal options redundant

I specified AT vehicle

You are even including a bunch of buffs in that paragraph so I don't even know how you can say your disagreeing with me?

Sure, if they buffed the Stuart, made elite zooks on officers, buffed Sherman AP, improved 57mm Vet, then yeah, maybe the Jackson wouldn't need to be so good. I'm saying CURRENTLY the Jackson is that good because it needs to be

The stuart is the next strongest AT vehicle on the roster. That's kind of insane compared to all 4 of the other factions
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GachiGasm
2 Jul 2021, 20:36 PM
#148
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

I honestly dont really undertand this "USF has not AT aside from Jackson", while soviets objectively have even less AT options then USF. USF have at least stock sherman, which is, while not being great, is still better then soviet T34\76.

Soviets dont have proper inf held AT (while PTRS are okish now, zooks, especially elite ones, are still better), their medium is objectively the weakest one in AT. When it comes to tanks vs tanks options, soviets have only stock SU85 and doc T34\85 and lend-lease Sherman. KV1 is fat a T34\76, IS-2 is a joke. KV2\ISU are good units, but I woudnt call them AT units.

USF on the other hand have debatable AT gun, which is not the best one out of the gate, but if you pump muni into it it might be the best one.

USF is far behind in terms of mines, since without commander they dont have wide access to them, unlike soviets. They also were behind in terms of snares, but it was fixed.

Theoretically if stock M1 was a bit better, if they had access to mines like other faction on REs and maybe if Sherman AP rounds were a bit better in terms of penetration, USF wouldnt be THAT far behind in terms of AT options like ppl tend to speak about them.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Jul 2021, 20:48 PM
#149
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Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:36 PMGachiGasm
I honestly dont really undertand this "USF has not AT aside from Jackson",

If you're referencing me that's not what I said. I clearly specified stock AT vehicles

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:36 PMGachiGasm

while soviets objectively have even less AT options then USF. USF have at least stock sherman, which is, while not being great, is still better then soviet T34\76.

No it isn't. T34 is much more cost effective imo. 20 fuel cheaper, and Ram let's it be a serious threat to setup kills on heavies. The Sherman's AT isn't really that much better, both of them will usually lose to an OKW p4 anyway

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:36 PMGachiGasm

Soviets dont have proper inf held AT (while PTRS are okish now, zooks, especially elite ones, are still better), their medium is objectively the weakest one in AT. When it comes to tanks vs tanks options, soviets have only stock SU85 and doc T34\85 and lend-lease Sherman.

The su76 is a AT vehicle. It's far from amazing, but it's better than the USFs next stock AT vehicle. Which is the stuart, if you can even count that. It's more of an anti-light
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GachiGasm
2 Jul 2021, 21:02 PM
#150
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:48 PMSkysTheLimit

If you're referencing me that's not what I said. I clearly specified stock AT vehicles

Not nessery to you, a lot of folks around say that USF aside from Jackson everything else is garbo AT vise.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:48 PMSkysTheLimit

No it isn't. T34 is much more cost effective imo. 20 fuel cheaper, and Ram let's it be a serious threat to setup kills on heavies. The Sherman's AT isn't really that much better, both of them will usually lose to an OKW p4 anyway

Well ram was nerfed, now its much harder to pull it off that it was before. But sure if you compare Sherman and T34 vs P4J then t34 is much more cost effective. But P4J is the most expensive stock medium to begin with. Not to mention that while Sherman and T34\76 will struggle against it, T34\76 will also struggle vs regular PIV and other armored units. Unlike sherman.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:48 PMSkysTheLimit

The su76 is a AT vehicle. It's far from amazing, but it's better than the USFs next stock AT vehicle. Which is the stuart, if you can even count that. It's more of an anti-light

Yes su76 is an AT vehicle, but lets be real here, who would use it, aside from some emergency situations? Most of the time you see ppl using T70. SU76 has its place only if you cant get youself zis and you would pretty much have to sacrifice your whole mid game AI but getting it, ofcouse if you dont want delaying your T4 units by a few minutes.
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SkysTheLimit
2 Jul 2021, 21:04 PM
#151
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 21:02 PMGachiGasm

Yes su76 is an AT vehicle, but lets be real here, who would use it, aside from some emergency situations? Most of the time you see ppl using T70. SU76 has its place only if you cant get youself zis and you would pretty much have to sacrifice your whole mid game AI but getting it, ofcouse if you dont want delaying your T4 units by a few minutes.

I use su76 all the time in team games. I rarely get the t70 in teams because you see the puma all the time. Especially if there's 2 or more OKW players, I find the t70 to be a massive waste

1v1 I agree, I almost never use su76
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thedarkarmadillo
2 Jul 2021, 23:15 PM
#152
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 20:08 PMSkysTheLimit

That's not really saying much cause all 3 of them suffer quite a bit on those maps

aye, but like in all situations the jackson suffers least, which is part of the issue
I specified AT vehicle

as the first faction with weapon racks and thusly the ability to turn every single squad they have into an AT option i feel like this was intentional. the jackson was supposed to be end game AT not all game AT
You are even including a bunch of buffs in that paragraph so I don't even know how you can say your disagreeing with me?

Sure, if they buffed the Stuart, made elite zooks on officers, buffed Sherman AP, improved 57mm Vet, then yeah, maybe the Jackson wouldn't need to be so good. I'm saying CURRENTLY the Jackson is that good because it needs to be

but the trend has been doubling down on the jackson as the only viable form of AT instead of looking at under performing AT options. the current jackson is a product of neglecting the rest of the roster and faction design. i say i disagree because every time we try to discuss USF aT and how the jackson blocking doctrinal options it always ends in "the jackson is like that because it has to be like that"
i want a discussion about making EVERYTHING viable instead of everything riding solely the jackson and everything else gathering dust.

my suggestions are to open up discourse and provide a basis to discuss a potential balance where the jackson isnt the key stone to USF

The stuart is the next strongest AT vehicle on the roster. That's kind of insane compared to all 4 of the other factions

again, this imo is a result of faction design and the weapon rack system. soviet have to build a certain building and expensive unit to have non vehicle AT, hell, at a time it was possible to not even have MP AT without back teching, USF doesn't have that issue.

barring that, USF have like 4 medium AT call in tanks should a player feel the neccesity for something a lil cheaper. for lights the stuart is more than adequate.
#stalinwept
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Vipper
2 Jul 2021, 23:28 PM
#153
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 23:15 PMthedarkarmadillo
the current jackson is a product of neglecting the rest of the roster and faction design.

I would add and product of unreversed changes, example:

M36 designed as a "kiter"

M36 Jackson

Developer Comments: Increased LOS to allow the M36 to better kite, locate and hunt enemy armor without boosting its firepower any further.

LOS from 35 to 40
Tank acceleration increased from 2.5 to 3
Veterancy 2 sight radius bonus changed from 30% to add 5

Then it was redesigned and had a firepower boost as with normal HP but the boosted acceleration remained (LOS was removed).

:)
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Protos Angelus
3 Jul 2021, 01:20 AM
#154
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 23:15 PMthedarkarmadillo



I mean, if 1v1 mode was all there is, then you could rework jackson easily. But do play 3v3 USF and tell me if Jackson is OP. Especially in a faction that has no access to any armoured tanks AND reliable anti-blob unit.
So basically it all boils down to "Use 2 rifles to fight one ober" and since you'll mostly be going vs 2x Obers, you'll need the 3 rifles + officer to fight them. And while the OKW player is "blobbing" 2 obers with much less micro, you're moving 4 units viable to all sorts of strikes.

Pak howi is downright useless in autofire vs blobs. Only good thing about it is the muni drain WP and vet2 HE. And that's a slow firing barrage. So again, anyone with a bit of braincells will move out of the area.
Scott is laughable vs moving blobs. Right now it's good for accurate barrage and smoke.
I usually backtech to 50cal but again, lategame elites melt it.

Teamgames will only ever be Calliope commander if you want to win. Last 5 games had 5 wins. 2 Pershing 3 Calliope. The calliope games were easy and ended with a positive K/D ratio.
Pershing games were disastrous. In each and every game, the Pershing gets replaced by dual Jacksons. Especially since most games are vs at least 2x OKW and in each and every game I see sturmtiger + KT + raketen wall. With the 3v3 map design which allows sturmtiger to camp behind sight blockers and wipe squads capturing (eg Lienne is a Godsend for STiger).

So you can screech and yell how you want a good rework of USF, but it won't happen, because USF is well balanced in 1v1 and fails miserably in teamgames. Mostly because you have a much higher density of forces, and versatility matters less and pure firepower/armour win games. You can smoke all you want and whatnot, when you'll be greeted by 2x werfers and one stuka or STiger or whatever. Eg, you could call a 3v3 "1v1 in small VP lanes" (which often turns into a pile up on the mid VP)

So you propagate the notion of USF as mobile and versatile. But in reality it's not. Except for the crews, you don't have anything substantial or unique in USF.
In teamgames, it all boils down to winning the early game with better infantry and picking a calliope commander to deal with lategame blob pushes backed by Panther dives. And even here you need to ask the ally to place mines for Panthers.
Once the Tigers and Kings roll out, no amount of E8s or whatever will help. M57 will cost you a fortune in munis to keep up and usually bleed you MP vs indirects.

You can't ask for substantial changes in a faction which lacks basic tools and need backteching. Let alone when you have a stock KT and 960hp/260 armour stock tanks in both axis factions (and even 230 armour, low profile 60 range TD in OKW)
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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SkysTheLimit
3 Jul 2021, 03:00 AM
#155
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Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jul 2021, 23:15 PMthedarkarmadillo

Yeah again I'm talking about why the Jackson is currently this good, it's not my idea

I don't like it either, I've suggested a stock m10 about 100 times. Go back to specializing the m36 to being an anti-heavy glass Cannon, m10 can fight everything else. Is anything even remotely close to that going to happen at this point? Probably not, that would be a seismic change. Just like I don't think they are going to buff almost every source of AT on the roster just so they can nerf the Jackson

USFs design is horrible, especially their over-reliance on infantry. And your point about AT accessibility I find confusing. If you choose to get the stuart then you won't have access to your AT gun without back-teching. Even just choosing to have access to MGs at least delays your AT gun. Their AT gun is literally the least accessible out of anyone, and it used to be even worse

Then if you choose one of those medium call-ins you have no rocket arty. Which is just great because that means double AT guns is an even safer bet for your opponents
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jagd wölfe
5 Jul 2021, 08:49 AM
#156
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

I think that the Easy 8 performs quite decently for its price. Especially by vet 2 it really becomes a "mini panther" with focused gunnery in my opinion. So far I have been using both the new 76mm and the Easy 8 and somehow had even better results with the Easy 8 in countering Infantry. Maybe the commander upgrade has an hidden nerf to the aoe to balance it our, because in this thread there's people that could swear the opposite of what I witnessed

On a side note. The M3 halftrack slot could be bundled with Cavalry Riflemen to make the commander per se more appealing. Cavalry Riflemen are in no other commander than Mechanized company. They synergize well with the M3 and they are still "riflemen" so Rifle Company is still the most fitting commander. Mechanized has it bundled with the WC51 and I also hate this inconsistency. Or the M3 could be bundled in the Easy 8 slot as "Armored support group" to make room for Cavalry rifles
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2021, 07:47 AMKatitof

They certainly hide from me.
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rumartinez89
5 Jul 2021, 16:34 PM
#157
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2021, 08:49 AMjagd wölfe
I think that the Easy 8 performs quite decently for its price. Especially by vet 2 it really becomes a "mini panther" with focused gunnery in my opinion. So far I have been using both the new 76mm and the Easy 8 and somehow had even better results with the Easy 8 in countering Infantry. Maybe the commander upgrade has an hidden nerf to the aoe to balance it our, because in this thread there's people that could swear the opposite of what I witnessed

On a side note. The M3 halftrack slot could be bundled with Cavalry Riflemen to make the commander per se more appealing. Cavalry Riflemen are in no other commander than Mechanized company. They synergize well with the M3 and they are still "riflemen" so Rifle Company is still the most fitting commander. Mechanized has it bundled with the WC51 and I also hate this inconsistency. Or the M3 could be bundled in the Easy 8 slot as "Armored support group" to make room for Cavalry rifles


I have been saying that for a while, fire up would have great synergy with calvary rifleman.
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Vipper
5 Jul 2021, 16:35 PM
#158
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jul 2021, 16:34 PMrumartinez89


I have been saying that for a while, fire up would have great synergy with calvary rifleman.

AT satchel and Sprint a combination that should be avoided...
:)
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Mon
5 Jul 2021, 17:31 PM
#159
avatar of Mon

Posts: 29

It fine
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Kurobane
5 Jul 2021, 23:40 PM
#160
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2021, 03:00 AMSkysTheLimit

I'm talking about why the Jackson is currently this good, it's not my idea


There was a patch some time ago that gave it a huge HP Boost as it was a glass cannon before since it used to be like paper and die in like 2 hits.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the Jackson return to that if it meant USF got the Easy 8 as a stock unit to screen for the Jackson.

At the moment there is no point on wasting fuel on anything unless its a Jackson/Calliope
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