Why is this even a thread? Mortar flares are normal since: They need a unit to pop it. They can't be just instantly popped anywhere on the map (like spec ops).
Only thing that could be done (if it's not already) is to put flares behind vet1. That's it. Fussies have flares which work within the utility part of the unit and give value, and same as mortar flares, require a unit/range dependent.
This is nothing but a "Lost to soviet mortar flares, OP" thread...
Petition to Nerf/Remove Soviet Mortar Flare
26 Apr 2021, 14:08 PM
#41
Posts: 1515
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
26 Apr 2021, 14:15 PM
#42
Posts: 5279
Still it is a lot weaker in contrast to GW 34, saying ost is supposed to have better support weapon does not exempt you from giving a proper answer.
It was a proper answer. Osts team weapon effeciency is supposed to be above soviets. Soviet team weapons are more durable and more versatile but lesser in raw output. That output DOES have to be somewhat meaningful... 25% better isn't unreasonable (especially since it USED to be 100% in the case of the mortar)
You gotta leave Osts something. Otherwise what? Soviet face off in a mortar duel and simply win outright because they can spot with the flare, match DPS and outlast because of the crew? That's hardly reasonable...
#stalinwept
26 Apr 2021, 14:24 PM
#43
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I assume the performance difference regarding the barrage is rather small. What is crucial is the time to land the second and to a lesser extend also the third shell. Here the GR34 performs better. After being hit by the second shell the barraged squad will move out of the area the latest.
The difference also only exists for clumped formations which usually happens in cover. And at least in green cover this difference will be smaller due to the damage reduction modifier.
The PM41 barrage is potentially better when shooting at squads that cover behind bushes or fences, otherwise not so much.
Depend on what you want to describe as small but the difference in auto fire are comparable.
MMX analysis is quite clear Soviet mortar has a better barrage even taking into account time factors.
26 Apr 2021, 14:24 PM
#44
Posts: 1563
It is unreasonable. The soviet support weapons are less powerful but have better tactical utility. If your going to remove the flare how does one compensate for the loss of tactical utility because they are still weaker.
It was a proper answer. Osts team weapon effeciency is supposed to be above soviets. Soviet team weapons are more durable and more versatile but lesser in raw output. That output DOES have to be somewhat meaningful... 25% better isn't unreasonable (especially since it USED to be 100% in the case of the mortar)
You gotta leave Osts something. Otherwise what? Soviet face off in a mortar duel and simply win outright because they can spot with the flare, match DPS and outlast because of the crew? That's hardly reasonable...
26 Apr 2021, 14:26 PM
#45
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Still it is a lot weaker in contrast to GW 34, saying ost is supposed to have better support weapon does not exempt you from giving a proper answer.
No it is not check the comparison that with the link I have provided.
26 Apr 2021, 14:33 PM
#46
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Depend on what you want to describe as small but the difference in auto fire are comparable.
MMX analysis is quite clear Soviet mortar has a better barrage.
Then have a look at his data again.
If we reasonably assume that the squad moves out of the area within 5-10 seconds, the GR34 has a higher chance of actually landing the second/third shot because they arrive faster.
26 Apr 2021, 14:35 PM
#47
Posts: 1563
it is. Considering the difference in squad size of the units the difference is even more stark.
No it is not check the comparison that with the link I have provided.
26 Apr 2021, 14:37 PM
#48
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
it is. Considering the difference in squad size of the units the difference is even more stark.
Read the freaking analysis pls and argue anything about his methodology with MMX in his thread.
26 Apr 2021, 14:38 PM
#49
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Depend on what you want to describe as small but the difference in auto fire are comparable.
MMX analysis is quite clear Soviet mortar has a better barrage.
I'd say the difference is still rather small, except vs clumped targets and at max range where the PM-41 should be superior. The slightly faster fire rate is definitely a plus for the GRW-34 and may often make the difference between getting another shot in before a team weapon retreats and barraging an empty spot of land. also note that the results in the link refer to barrages into the FoW, in cases where you have vision on the target the scatter difference between both mortars is probably a bit smaller and they should be a bit closer in terms of performance.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
26 Apr 2021, 14:43 PM
#50
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I'd say the difference is still rather small, except vs clumped targets and at max range where the PM-41 should be superior. The slightly faster fire rate is definitely a plus for the GRW-34 and may often make the difference between getting another shot in before a team weapon retreats and barraging an empty spot of land. also note that the results in the link refer to barrages into the FoW, in cases where you have vision on the target the scatter difference between both mortars is probably a bit smaller and they should be a bit closer in terms of performance.
Point remain that MP-41 does not need a buff in its barrage.
26 Apr 2021, 15:06 PM
#51
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Point remain that MP-41 does not need a buff in its barrage.
well, i agree. and to get back to the topic i'd also say that mortar flares are fine and don't need any nerfs. if anything they could be gated behind vet again, but that's about it.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
26 Apr 2021, 17:40 PM
#52
Posts: 1289
It was a proper answer. Osts team weapon effeciency is supposed to be above soviets. Soviet team weapons are more durable and more versatile but lesser in raw output. That output DOES have to be somewhat meaningful... 25% better isn't unreasonable (especially since it USED to be 100% in the case of the mortar)
You gotta leave Osts something. Otherwise what? Soviet face off in a mortar duel and simply win outright because they can spot with the flare, match DPS and outlast because of the crew? That's hardly reasonable...
The flare costs muni and manual input, its in the air a few seconds, the soviet mortar that shot the flare doesnt have enough time to win vs ost mortar. It gets about 2 rounds off in auto fire i believe before the flare goes out.
I for one havent seen it winning a dual with the ost mortar.
26 Apr 2021, 19:27 PM
#53
Posts: 5279
The flare costs muni and manual input, its in the air a few seconds, the soviet mortar that shot the flare doesnt have enough time to win vs ost mortar. It gets about 2 rounds off in auto fire i believe before the flare goes out.
I for one havent seen it winning a dual with the ost mortar.
Have you tried combining the flare with the superior barrage?
I'm aware it requires more resources, and as a result the rewards are greater. Multipurpose always covers a broader area, but single purpose does that thing better.
If you speed up the rof on the soviet mortar it has everything going for it and the ost mortar nothing, not having utility or flexibly to fall back on.
Intel is very strong, that's why I think the flare could afford to be behind vet. The days of the soviet mortar being trash are gone. It's rather in line with the ost one given all factors so I don't think the added bonus of always having the flare is necessary
#stalinwept
27 Apr 2021, 01:15 AM
#54
Posts: 658
Why is this even a thread?
People like to cry and complain about everything when most of the problems are on a personal level. Mortar Flare is fine in my opinion. First if the Soviet player has Mortars then they went with a T-2 opening and against OKW....definitely a L2P issue here. You can do the same thing with IR Halftrack or JLI cloaked to give you sight which btw does not cost ammunition or require a mortar which will not last to end game once Stuka or Panzerwerfer hits the field.
Either way this is a non issue compared to Spec OPs global flare. It requires a Support Unit which...does supporting abilities or do we want to go back to Precision Strike?
27 Apr 2021, 04:17 AM
#55
Posts: 1954
The flare costs muni and manual input, its in the air a few seconds, the soviet mortar that shot the flare doesnt have enough time to win vs ost mortar. It gets about 2 rounds off in auto fire i believe before the flare goes out.
I for one havent seen it winning a dual with the ost mortar.
It sometimes does if your first shot is the flare and you attack the Ost mortar. Even then, you need RNG to be equal because you get the first shot but the Ost fires faster.
If the flare was removed from Vet 0, the Soviet mortar would never win, despite ludicrous claims about its barrage being superior. The Ost isn't the old turbo mortar (I got 59 kills once against double soviet before the ROF nerf) but it's still a little better than the other mortars.
I don't think mortars need to be rebalanced. The delayed fuse change seems okay and is more of a change than a direct nerf.
27 Apr 2021, 04:24 AM
#56
Posts: 2779
Didn't notice that, but okay. The fuse delay will help punish aggressive truck placement, at a little bit of a loss of utility.
Aggressive?
Given the 120mm mortar range, they can bomb the hell out of the trucks even in base sectors.
27 Apr 2021, 05:18 AM
#57
Posts: 1954
People like to cry and complain about everything when most of the problems are on a personal level. Mortar Flare is fine in my opinion. First if the Soviet player has Mortars then they went with a T-2 opening and against OKW....definitely a L2P issue here. You can do the same thing with IR Halftrack or JLI cloaked to give you sight which btw does not cost ammunition or require a mortar which will not last to end game once Stuka or Panzerwerfer hits the field.
Either way this is a non issue compared to Spec OPs global flare. It requires a Support Unit which...does supporting abilities or do we want to go back to Precision Strike?
Petition to bring back Precision Strike incoming.....Guaranteed decrew a MG42 for the mere price of 30 munitions.
27 Apr 2021, 05:19 AM
#58
Posts: 1954
Aggressive?
Given the 120mm mortar range, they can bomb the hell out of the trucks even in base sectors.
...only if you've been base-pinned, which probably wasn't because of a 120.
27 Apr 2021, 07:29 AM
#59
Posts: 1289
Have you tried combining the flare with the superior barrage?
I'm aware it requires more resources, and as a result the rewards are greater. Multipurpose always covers a broader area, but single purpose does that thing better.
If you speed up the rof on the soviet mortar it has everything going for it and the ost mortar nothing, not having utility or flexibly to fall back on.
Intel is very strong, that's why I think the flare could afford to be behind vet. The days of the soviet mortar being trash are gone. It's rather in line with the ost one given all factors so I don't think the added bonus of always having the flare is necessary
The buff to the barrage was if flares are outright removed. wich is what this petition is also suggesting. But i should have been more clear on that.
I never found the barrage of the soviet mortar supirior to the ost one. Its quite forgiving in terms of duration/rof. Ive had barrages do next to zero damage on deployed mg's wich didnt move and where not hindered by it.
Scouting/intel is indeed strong. But in soviets case you need t2 and a mortar to even get a flare, imo thats cost enough. Pio's get extra sight range at no cost to allow esp the mg 42 to do its job better. So for me personaly the soviet mortar and it flare are fine as is.
The soviet mortar should be better in utility and durability right now it succeeds in both. Ost mortar is about damage output in wich it suceeds, but every since it doesnt do dubble to triple auto fire damage compared to the soviet mortar it fell out of favor hard.
27 Apr 2021, 07:31 AM
#60
Posts: 1794
the strength of soviet mortar is the 6 man and cons merge so it can outlast ost mortar in 4v4 games
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