There was a time about three years ago when the win rates were balanced across all modes. The last several patches haven't been good for Allies 4v4. That said, I do like a lot of the stuff that the balance team has done and overall they've improved the game a lot.
The USF really needs a non-doc tank that is more than 640 HP. It's rare in a 4v4 that an Axis team won't have at least 2 AT guns in one of the lane maps, so something like a standard Sherman is mostly pointless in a 4v4. It's fine in a 1v1 or 2v2. Adding some type of side upgrade to the Major tier that would allow the USF to make Easy 8's would help greatly (along with a small buff to the AI aoe). By the same token, the T34/85 should be the stock tank for the Soviets. I don't know why they keep insisting that Soviets are built around what they had in 1942 while OST and OKW are 1945.
4v4 win rates disparity
7 Apr 2021, 01:47 AM
#21
Posts: 1954
7 Apr 2021, 02:13 AM
#22
Posts: 919
UKF lack a lot of tools that are basically required in 4s.
Yeah thats right, if I think about our arranged 4vs4 teams it comes basically down to this:
One player goes for AEF for nondoc recon plus either...
1) Jackson + Calliope or...
2) Jackson + Priest + ToT (Howitzer-counter).
After this patch with multiple Calliope nerf it will be most probably only the second choice, how refreshing.
The other three go for Soviet since UKF has NOTHING valuable to add that three Soviet plus one AEF don't have in an overall better or more cost efficient way.
7 Apr 2021, 02:50 AM
#23
Posts: 179
Snip
I'll add that the new incendiary rounds on the Stuka crush any fortifications you setup.
What was intended to make Brit Sim City easier to fight just made your Defenses completely unusable, negating a huge chunk of your arsenal.
7 Apr 2021, 02:59 AM
#24
Posts: 359
I'll add that the new incendiary rounds on the Stuka crush any fortifications you setup.
What was intended to make Brit Sim City easier to fight just made your Defenses completely unusable, negating a huge chunk of your arsenal.
I actually made a thread regarding this that feels mostly ignored by the balance team in regards to the recent patch notes: https://www.coh2.org/topic/107735/new-stuka-napalm-is-too-powerful
7 Apr 2021, 04:14 AM
#25
Posts: 356
The largest issue WRT to game mode balance remains economy scaling IMO.
Large game mode maps tend to have more resource points, and caches also become no-brainers since they affect all team-mates, despite costing the same. This results in a much higher fuel and muni income that tends to benefit axis more since their high quality, yet expensive, tools are no longer so expensive.
The economy issue ought to be the first thing fixed, since units cannot be priced and preform the same in all game modes, while the game modes themselves operate under a different economy.
Another idea I've had WRT balancing larger game modes is to do so through the commander system, but I feel like this would be much harder to do than just fix the economies. Basically lean into the fact that some doctrines such as jaeger armor really only fit into team games, and use this to balance things separately from 1v1.
Large game mode maps tend to have more resource points, and caches also become no-brainers since they affect all team-mates, despite costing the same. This results in a much higher fuel and muni income that tends to benefit axis more since their high quality, yet expensive, tools are no longer so expensive.
The economy issue ought to be the first thing fixed, since units cannot be priced and preform the same in all game modes, while the game modes themselves operate under a different economy.
Another idea I've had WRT balancing larger game modes is to do so through the commander system, but I feel like this would be much harder to do than just fix the economies. Basically lean into the fact that some doctrines such as jaeger armor really only fit into team games, and use this to balance things separately from 1v1.
7 Apr 2021, 04:51 AM
#26
Posts: 658
Remove spotting scopes and recon overflight from Jager armour that shit is stupid in combo with the Elephant
Agreed especially since almost all allied vision options got nerfed.
7 Apr 2021, 05:10 AM
#27
Posts: 56
That is an amazing site for getting some macro statistic.
I hope the site can do some sort of analyzation on the action list order (the one that records units and building's construction, point capping, etc.) along with the unit build/loss/efficiency stats. Yielding something like a meta build order/total unit composition base on different commander choices on different mode, to show maybe a certain unit are overperforming or underperforming.
I hope the site can do some sort of analyzation on the action list order (the one that records units and building's construction, point capping, etc.) along with the unit build/loss/efficiency stats. Yielding something like a meta build order/total unit composition base on different commander choices on different mode, to show maybe a certain unit are overperforming or underperforming.
7 Apr 2021, 06:06 AM
#28
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Not very surprising to see these win rates. I mostly played 3v3 in the last weeks and Axis seems quite a bit stronger and especially easier to play. UKF is still very good vs. OKW but that's really the only good match-up Allies have in the big game modes. Jäger Armour is still broken OP.
7 Apr 2021, 07:39 AM
#29
Posts: 1003
Axis in team games is much more easier, because easy fuel lock with MG and late game come much more early.
For Soviets ISU-152 (or IS-2) as a non doc unit will help (like a okw KT).
For Soviets ISU-152 (or IS-2) as a non doc unit will help (like a okw KT).
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
7 Apr 2021, 07:51 AM
#30
Posts: 240
As someone who play coh2 basically axis only w/ friends on the weekend, I'm not surprised at the disparity.
In larger teamgames its either break the neck of axis by the denial of fuel and close the game or axis will win in the late game (usually).
That said, if allies are coordinated they can win the game on most maps within 20 minutes, BUT it definitely requires more effort to do so than for the usual axis hold out until late game.
Next thing is (in my opinion) that most of the large teamgame playerbase play the modes for the lategame units, and that "rushing" for the win is not that enjoyable in the long run. (My perspective, not a fact)
And Axis definitely has a better array of non-doctrinal late game units.
In my opinion I don't get why the elefant-commander's dive bomb got replaced with quiet a potent AT-strafe, while the ISU-commander got a strafe that is known to be buggy/not working.
In larger teamgames its either break the neck of axis by the denial of fuel and close the game or axis will win in the late game (usually).
That said, if allies are coordinated they can win the game on most maps within 20 minutes, BUT it definitely requires more effort to do so than for the usual axis hold out until late game.
Next thing is (in my opinion) that most of the large teamgame playerbase play the modes for the lategame units, and that "rushing" for the win is not that enjoyable in the long run. (My perspective, not a fact)
And Axis definitely has a better array of non-doctrinal late game units.
In my opinion I don't get why the elefant-commander's dive bomb got replaced with quiet a potent AT-strafe, while the ISU-commander got a strafe that is known to be buggy/not working.
The Ruleset is only a guideline, and are not actually the Rules. This is .org
7 Apr 2021, 07:55 AM
#31
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I'm glad to finally have some statistics to work with. Even if they should be taken with a grain of salt (as indicated by the website itself).
I do find it odd that people don't veto the laney maps more that clearly favour the HMG 42 and heavy TDs. Playing less games on Red and White Ball or Hamburg (maps where there is 0 room to flank HMGs or TDs) would probably significantly decrease the disparity in win ratios.
Does this website have any way to filter the win ratio per map? Or does anyone know if there any plans for that? Does anyone know who the author of this website is?
Also Jaeger Armor does seem to still be super meta. I think it was already planned to remove Spotting Scope from the Elefant itself, but it probably needs more. In hindsight the AT strafe has been stronger than anticipated.
I do find it odd that people don't veto the laney maps more that clearly favour the HMG 42 and heavy TDs. Playing less games on Red and White Ball or Hamburg (maps where there is 0 room to flank HMGs or TDs) would probably significantly decrease the disparity in win ratios.
Does this website have any way to filter the win ratio per map? Or does anyone know if there any plans for that? Does anyone know who the author of this website is?
Also Jaeger Armor does seem to still be super meta. I think it was already planned to remove Spotting Scope from the Elefant itself, but it probably needs more. In hindsight the AT strafe has been stronger than anticipated.
7 Apr 2021, 08:04 AM
#32
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I'm glad to finally have some statistics to work with. Even if they should be taken with a grain of salt (as indicated by the website itself).
I do find it odd that people don't veto the laney maps more that clearly favour the HMG 42 and heavy TDs. Playing less games on Red and White Ball or Hamburg (maps where there is 0 room to flank HMGs or TDs) would probably significantly decrease the disparity in win ratios.
Does this website have any way to filter the win ratio per map? Or does anyone know if there any plans for that? Does anyone know who the author of this website is?
Also Jaeger Armor does seem to still be super meta. I think it was already planned to remove Spotting Scope from the Elefant itself, but it probably needs more. In hindsight the AT strafe has been stronger than anticipated.
1) The stat about commander is not what commander are used but what commander are on the load out. Just because some commander are on load out does not mean they are being used. I keep Ele commander in my load out for 2vs2 but hardly use them.
2) Spotting scope on the Elefant itself are actually that useful because the unit rotate and loses vision all the time
3) Spotting scope and other sight abilities should become timed abilities and not always on.
7 Apr 2021, 08:22 AM
#33
Posts: 772
Stuff like JT and Elefat is why I can't play 4v4. ISU used to be on that list, but since it is in the bin...
It always baffled my how units with extreme range, humongous health and armor paired with ridiculous damage are present in the game. And there are no reliable, and since last patch, unreliable counters to those. And to add the salt on the wound particular unit is able to self spot...
It always baffled my how units with extreme range, humongous health and armor paired with ridiculous damage are present in the game. And there are no reliable, and since last patch, unreliable counters to those. And to add the salt on the wound particular unit is able to self spot...
7 Apr 2021, 08:32 AM
#34
Posts: 1515
I'm glad to finally have some statistics to work with. Even if they should be taken with a grain of salt (as indicated by the website itself).
I do find it odd that people don't veto the laney maps more that clearly favour the HMG 42 and heavy TDs. Playing less games on Red and White Ball or Hamburg (maps where there is 0 room to flank HMGs or TDs) would probably significantly decrease the disparity in win ratios.
Does this website have any way to filter the win ratio per map? Or does anyone know if there any plans for that? Does anyone know who the author of this website is?
Also Jaeger Armor does seem to still be super meta. I think it was already planned to remove Spotting Scope from the Elefant itself, but it probably needs more. In hindsight the AT strafe has been stronger than anticipated.
I'm pretty sure most people just vote ban snowy maps. At least I do. For one reason only. FPS drops so hard on sny setting that it becomes unplayable.. basically you have to A-move your unity because otherwise you get a headache from the stuttery sh**. Whereas the normal maps it's quite smooth later on after the 64bit.
Btw. You can flank on whiteball. The margins of the map offer sneaky pushes in 3v3. 4v4 probably not but I have managed to sneak ranger zooks to take out stukas and werfers a couple of times on it. Or a Puma to take out calliope. Still, 4v4 is just so dense in terms of population that Steppes is the only real map for flanks.
Also, pak howi is overnerfed. Definitely needs a slight buff to aoe. Played one more game now with friends, 3 pak shots to two clumped up vet 2/3 grens took out 2 models and about 80% of hp, not in green cover mind you
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
7 Apr 2021, 08:34 AM
#35
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
I'm glad to finally have some statistics to work with. Even if they should be taken with a grain of salt (as indicated by the website itself).
I do find it odd that people don't veto the laney maps more that clearly favour the HMG 42 and heavy TDs. Playing less games on Red and White Ball or Hamburg (maps where there is 0 room to flank HMGs or TDs) would probably significantly decrease the disparity in win ratios.
Does this website have any way to filter the win ratio per map? Or does anyone know if there any plans for that? Does anyone know who the author of this website is?
Also Jaeger Armor does seem to still be super meta. I think it was already planned to remove Spotting Scope from the Elefant itself, but it probably needs more. In hindsight the AT strafe has been stronger than anticipated.
Totally agree. I am glad I am not the only one that thinks adding the AT strafe to Jäger Armour has not turned out to be a good idea. Especially when compared to the ISU doctrines and their AI strafe.
7 Apr 2021, 08:41 AM
#36
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
1) The stat about commander is not what commander are used but what commander are on the load out. Just because some commander are on load out does not mean they are being used. I keep Ele commander in my load out for 2vs2 but hardly use them.
Ah, I see. Still the loadout data seems to be a decent indication that the commander is still overused, because similar meta commanders (Breakthrough, Mechanized Support, etc.) do not have a disparity between the top pick and the rest of the top 3-4 that is this huge.
7 Apr 2021, 08:56 AM
#37
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Ah, I see. Still the loadout data seems to be a decent indication that the commander is still overused, because similar meta commanders (Breakthrough, Mechanized Support, etc.) do not have a disparity between the top pick and the rest of the top 3-4 that is this huge.
Yes it an indicator, but not very safe unless one can see what commander have been picked.
Having that said I am pretty sure that most teams would at least have a Elefant or JT deployed in the majority of games.
7 Apr 2021, 09:50 AM
#38
Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36
Can someone give me stats from before the unit patch?
And who is the creater?
(never trust stats, which you self did not manipulate
)
And who is the creater?
(never trust stats, which you self did not manipulate
)
7 Apr 2021, 10:31 AM
#39
Posts: 163
Basically this thread is just nerf axis buff allies.
7 Apr 2021, 10:36 AM
#40
2 Posts: 538
Can someone give me stats from before the unit patch?
And who is the creater?
(never trust stats, which you self did not manipulate
the "about" page is pretty well written and explains, where data comes from.
pagep is the user to contact if you want more information.
Greetings from Nürnberg - always happy to increase our local COH pool for local events - more glory: Rankade ladder
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