Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

Giving Partisans merge is like setting a nuke off inside your manpower reserves. Not only are you taking a squad that takes 36mp to reinforce and making it have to reinforce more, but you're taking a squad member with above 1 RA and putting it into another squad where he will immediately die if the breeze blows a bit too hard. Fun, hilarious, but an awful idea with current iteration of Partisans.

I'd like to see a way for Partisans to reinforce off ambient buildings when not in combat. Might actually justify the oppressive reinforce cost and make them a little more interesting than Soviet Stormtroopers. (Assuming this is even possible)

Giving Partisans merge is like setting a nuke off inside your manpower reserves. Not only are you taking a squad that takes 36mp to reinforce and making it have to reinforce more, but you're taking a squad member with above 1 RA and putting it into another squad where he will immediately die if the breeze blows a bit too hard. Fun, hilarious, but an awful idea with current iteration of Partisans.

like merge proper, the point would be instant reinforcement of a squad when its needed. merge shouldn't be a no brainer, but the ability to possibly drop a squad out of thin air and merge into a very important unit (say an AT gun that has taken losses but you dont have anything nearby to top it up and also cant retreat it) should come at a premium. having the option TO do something doesn't mean you are held with a gun to your head being forced to do so. the extra flexibility COULD be useful, and that in itself opens up so versatility

Maybe just let them come with 5 man normally so they are stronger outright and don't need to reinforce if they go the PPSH route? It would make it so partisans can at least hold their ground a little better especially as the game drags on and they have to start fighting high vet units.

Giving Partisans merge is like setting a nuke off inside your manpower reserves. Not only are you taking a squad that takes 36mp to reinforce and making it have to reinforce more, but you're taking a squad member with above 1 RA and putting it into another squad where he will immediately die if the breeze blows a bit too hard. Fun, hilarious, but an awful idea with current iteration of Partisans.

I'd like to see a way for Partisans to reinforce off ambient buildings when not in combat. Might actually justify the oppressive reinforce cost and make them a little more interesting than Soviet Stormtroopers. (Assuming this is even possible)

+1

in addition, the high base RA combined with relatively high reinforcement cost is what makes Partisans a huge burden the more the game progresses, and i wish there were ways to mitigate this to some degree.

i like the idea to allow on-field reinforcement from ambient structures a lot, though i agree this would be way too powerful if enabled permanently. my personal favorite is to tie this to the activation of spy network, since it would not only fit thematically but also restore a bit of the utility lost with the proposed nerfs to spy network in the beta.

alternatively, a reinforment cost reduction for partisans while the ability is active would also be a neat way to lessen the MP bleed a little bit.

The original partisan imo had better function qs they were basically offmap strike that costed mp instead of ammo. Pop them out of building when opportunity rises, potentially get weapon team killed and stolen or kill regular squad and then let them die. Not something many probably would would do, but 210 mp cost and starting with ppsh and poor durability it feels natural choice of use. Only issue was that buildings which from to perform such are few.

Maybe just let them come with 5 man normally so they are stronger outright and don't need to reinforce if they go the PPSH route? It would make it so partisans can at least hold their ground a little better especially as the game drags on and they have to start fighting high vet units.

1) Then they would have to be more expensive, currently their are much stronger than their price tag and increase entity count 5 would make OP for price.

2) That would Make AT partisan also a 5 men squad become one of the most cost efficient AT squad

I am not sure why people seem to forget how cost efficient, how power once it get first strike and how early this unit is available.

The main problem with partisan is not their performance but the commander they are available in.

Yes, that is fully fine. I personally still had the feeling that Partisans will bleed you heavily. I could not test the 5-men version in the mod in detail yet.

My main concern is more that their design should be different.
Soviets have tons of PPSh/CQC options already
- durable brute force squad with Shocks
- cheap economy squad with PPSh Cons
- ambush PPSh airborne guards
- close-mid range Thompson assault guards


These squads already cover almost all niches you can think of when it comes to CQC types. Do they now really need an aggressive ambush bursting unit? Making Partisans a combat squad is probably the easiest, but probably also the most boring solution.

I agree with this. Partisans should fill a roll that isn't already available to Soviets. Personally I think they should have some sort of Radio Silence type ability that makes them invisible on the Mini-Map. Make them like 5 Man Ostruppen Squads with some utility such as booby traps or mines.

1) Then they would have to be more expensive, currently their are much stronger than their price tag and increase entity count 5 would make OP for price.

2) That would Make AT partisan also a 5 men squad become one of the most cost efficient AT squad

I am not sure why people seem to forget how cost efficient, how power once it get first strike and how early this unit is available.

The main problem with partisan is not their performance but the commander they are available in.

The Commander they are available in is literally focused on them, how does this not make them the problem? They're in a bad commander because they are the sole focus of the commander and they happen to be a bad unit.

The thing with Partisans is they just kinda suck at what they do. I haven't seen them in a long time. The last time I did see them, they ambushed my Panzergrenadiers and ate shit. I shouldn't have won that engagement, I wasn't even paying attention until it was halfway over.

The Commander they are available in is literally focused on them, how does this not make them the problem?

If a whole commander is focus on CP1-CP2 infatry that is the problem of the commander and not the infatry.

How many commander are out there that being carried by CP1-CP2 infatry?

Do you really think that recreating Osttrupenn commander is really a good direction?

They're in a bad commander because they are the sole focus of the commander and they happen to be a bad unit.

The unit is more than cost efficient it simply can not carry the hole commander.
Do you think that if Shock troops replaces partisan they commander would suddenly be great?
Does that mean that shock troops are bad?

The thing with Partisans is they just kinda suck at what they do. I haven't seen them in a long time. The last time I did see them, they ambushed my Panzergrenadiers and ate shit. I shouldn't have won that engagement, I wasn't even paying attention until it was halfway over.

Why would you expect a 210 manpower CP1 unit beat a 340 T2 unit?

The unit is more than cost efficient it simply can not carry the hole commander.
Do you think that if Shock troops replaces partisan they commander would suddenly be great?
Does that mean that shock troops are bad?

Perhaps because they have one job and they cannot do it effectively, therefore there's no draw. But the Commander also has no late-game, and the Soviets have a weak late-game, meaning most people are going to grab a Commander that can grant them a late-game regardless of how good Partisans are.

Why would you expect a 210 manpower CP1 unit beat a 340 T2 unit?

In an ambush, yes. To use them effectively you have to keep one eye on them at all times so you see when an enemy is coming near them to manually begin the ambush before they get spotted. That's a heavy micro tax, which makes up for their low cost but does not justify their low effectiveness. If they can't ambush a default infantry unit and win, then they have failed at their only job.

Perhaps because they have one job and they cannot do it effectively, therefore there's no draw. But the Commander also has no late-game, and the Soviets have a weak late-game, meaning most people are going to grab a Commander that can grant them a late-game regardless of how good Partisans are.

Glad to see that you acknowledge that

In an ambush, yes. To use them effectively you have to keep one eye on them at all times so you see when an enemy is coming near them to manually begin the ambush before they get spotted. That's a heavy micro tax, which makes up for their low cost but does not justify their low effectiveness. If they can't ambush a default infantry unit and win, then they have failed at their only job.

What is that job that in your opinion have do and they can do?

Can infiltration commands do that job more cost efficiently?

You are simply expecting too much from 210 CP 1 unit.

If you actually have specifics stat and cost for your suggestion pls go ahead because this debate does not really lead anywhere.

Glad to see that you acknowledge that

Are you implying that Soviets should have a stronger late-game? Or are you admitting that it's fine that they have a weak late-game and are heavily reliant entirely on Commanders to survive?

What is that job that in your opinion have do and they can do?

Can infiltration commands do that job more cost efficiently?

You are simply expecting too much from 210 CP 1 unit.

If you actually have specifics stat and cost for your suggestion pls go ahead because this debate does not really lead anywhere.

That job is currently to ambush enemy units. They are short range and have too low a model count and DPS to function as an assault unit, so all they can do is rely on ambushes. I'm not sure why you bring up Commandos, in an ambush scenario they would certainly beat unsupported Panzergrenadiers. Stormtroopers are even better, with their MP 40's (only comparable to Thompson in close range) and tactical advance ability, they can beat anything short of Shock Troops.

Partisans
270 Manpower cost
Lower reinforcement cost (whatever is reasonable)
Starts as a 5 man squad with x3 Mosin Nagants and x2 PPSH
Also has a short range AT grenade
Can specialize with x3 more PPSH or a Panzershreck and a longer range AT grenade.

Pretty much you will end up paying more manpower up front but get a flexible squad that gets a little bit of both worlds from the previos versions. 2 PPSHs doesn't make them melt retreating squads but gives them more lethality up close. The short range AT nade makes them extremely useful at helping to snare or finish vehicles off. Then the upgrades would let them specialize more if you have time or had them retreat and survive.

Are you implying that Soviets should have a stronger late-game? Or are you admitting that it's fine that they have a weak late-game and are heavily reliant entirely on Commanders to survive?

This is commander updated and any problem Soviet faction might or might not have late are irrelevant. The point that there much better commander out that bring more to the table.

That job is currently to ambush enemy units. They are short range and have too low a model count and DPS to function as an assault unit, so all they can do is rely on ambushes.

And they can do that just fine, place a mine use a grenade and they will beat the majority of enemy unit from an ambush especially once they get first strike bonuses.

I'm not sure why you bring up Commandos, in an ambush scenario they would certainly beat unsupported Panzergrenadiers.

I did not bring up commandos I brought infiltration commandos that spawn with 3 entities are much more expensive and are not that more cost efficient. They only start to work after the return to base and reinforce.

Stormtroopers are even better, with their MP 40's (only comparable to Thompson in close range) and tactical advance ability, they can beat anything short of Shock Troops.

Do ST cost 210? do they spawn with SMG? are they CP1? Do they have a pop of 4.

As for the DPS of ST it similar to that of commandos and commandos are actually stronger than ST because they can with an extra entity and HE grenade.

Now if you are suggesting that Partisan should become a ST clone with identical you might actually be disappointed and I doubt that they would be able to carry the commander.

If you have an actual suggestion feel free to provide because this start to feel like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

Finally got around to running the new B-4's math.

TL/DR Its an alpha strike oriented ML/20, otherwise its worse except in 1 weird case.

New B-4 has 71% less 160 damage radius, and 14% more 80 damage radius, with 3 times the 1 shot area than the ML/20 or leFH. Of note, the Priest actually has a larger 160 damage area. 6 times the 1 shot area of the Sexton.

Its an infantry hammer instead of a large AT gun. And a some-what consistent one with that ginormous 80 dmg radius.

The change from 0 -> 2 near didn't effect those numbers at all (+.01 to 160 dmg radius), just improving direct hit performance.

Damage applied to an area over time has increased by 17%, but still 21% less than the ML/20, and its really bad normalized with pop, only being better than the Sexton.

its only 15% less 80 damage area down range over time.

So, its a bad ML/20 with some reasonable alpha strike.

There is one space where it actually shines. The ML/20, B-4, and leFH all have the same scatter characteristics, except in one characteristic: FoW scatter. B-4 has 1.25 mod vs the 1.75 of other field artillery.

This means for into FoW long range infantry bombardment, the B-4 is king. The Priest beats everyone else by 2x, but the new B-4 is the best otherwise (by 7% over the leFH).

Its a weird niche, and if people don't complain I'll be surprised. If you watch the Tightrope video, you can see the insane 80 dmg radius. The tanks are tickled but the infantry get splattered.

I would suggest normalize B-4 CD with other fixed howitzers to 70 seconds. This maintains pop cost efficiency while allowing it to shine as an infantry hammer.

Otherwise, keep the Direct Fire at 640 damage. It keeps some of the old B-4's AT power.

I did not bring up commandos I brought infiltration commandos that spawn with 3 entities are much more expensive and are not that more cost efficient. They only start to work after the return to base and reinforce.

And that's a bad design too. Infiltration units that are required to return to base before they can be used are fundamentally contradictory. I don't know why they don't just get their SMG's free after a delay like Stormtroopers.

Do ST cost 210? do they spawn with SMG? are they CP1? Do they have a pop of 4.

Now if you are suggesting that Partisan should become a ST clone with identical you might actually be disappointed and I doubt that they would be able to carry the commander.

That's one possible route, the other is to grant them abilities that make them more of a support squad. Besides with the conversion of Airborne Guards from Assaulters to Ambushers, I doubt Partisans will ever be able to stack up on their own, so a supporting role is the only thing that makes sense.

If you have an actual suggestion feel free to provide because this start to feel like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

Isn't that your specialty? Besides, I did provide suggestions last page:

My suggestions for Partisans are:

• Give them a resource stealing ability like the Funkwagen from Panzer Elite.
  
• Allow them to reinforce in the field somehow.
  
• Grant them the Salvage ability.
  
• +1 Sturmpioneer StG at Vet 3.
  

Numbers 1-3 will provide a lot of utility, while #4 is just for fun.

And that's a bad design too. Infiltration units that are required to return to base before they can be used are fundamentally contradictory. I don't know why they don't just get their SMG's free after a delay like Stormtroopers.

Because if Inf. Commandos with 5 Enfield they could stick to them instead of getting stens get to 2 bren and be OP.

That's one possible route, the other is to grant them abilities that make them more of a support squad. Besides with the conversion of Airborne Guards from Assaulters to Ambushers, I doubt Partisans will ever be able to stack up on their own, so a supporting role is the only thing that makes sense.



Isn't that your specialty? Besides, I did provide suggestions last page:

And in you opinion those change are enough to make commander viable?

And what all has to do with suggestions to them make start as 5 men, the suggestion I was responding to?
If I understand correctly you do not agree with such a suggestion and you proposal are about increasing the utility instead of their raw power.

I know that this would never happen, but I always wanted Partisans to be a bit more unique than a simple ambush squad.

In my mind, partisans should be a weak, cheap squad spawning with 4 rifles (make them cost 160mp and give them ostruppen k98 stats if you want a reference.) They should have a very quick recharge time on the ability, so you can quickly pump out a couple of weak squads in the course of the engagement. The squads would be little more than an annoyance, but they would fulfill their role. Then, you would have one of 2 ways to use the partisans after the ambush.

1) You keep them and vet them. Maybe they have some upgrades with stolen german equipment for flavor (mp40, panzerbushce/ schrek, mg34). Veterancy would increase their accuracy in cover.

2) You use a new ability in the doctrine, called integrate (or whatever). The ability works like the old withdraw and refit, but for partisans. You gain back 120mp per squad (nothing extra for recycling squads with upgrades or vet).

This way, you can have a much more unique unit that fits the theme of Partisans, constantly jumping out of the woodwork, taking potshots, then fighting alongside regular forces or withdrawing once their mission is complete.

Because if Inf. Commandos with 5 Enfield they could stick to them instead of getting stens get to 2 bren and be OP.

Fair enough.

And in you opinion those change are enough to make commander viable?

I'm only focused on Partisans, the unit. It will be difficult to make the Commander shine when Soviet late-game often hinges on picking a T-34-85/KV-1/KV-2/IS-2/ISU-152 Commander.

If I understand correctly you do not agree with such a suggestion and you proposal are about increasing the utility instead of their raw power.

As I said, in the ambush role, they'd have to outdo Airborne Guards to be worth it, but they don't come with SVT's or constructable hardpoints.

snip

very interesting analysis. i agree the new B-4 is now an even more capable anti-infantry tool with somewhat limited AT capabilities. overall i'd say this is a good change, since the 3-shell barrage brings a bit more consistency while the frustrating OHKs of anything up to a medium tank caught in the blast are finally a thing of the past. maybe the AI power of the revamped B-4 is even a bit too high, especially in situations where you can't simply retreat back to safety after the first impact (such as in your base sector). guess we'll have see how this thing turns out once more testing has been done.

that being said, i've tried to replicate some of the numbers in your comparison and found mine to be way off. are you sure yours are correct?

New B-4 has 71% less 160 damage radius, and 14% more 80 damage radius, with 3 times the 1 shot area than the ML/20 or leFH. Of note, the Priest actually has a larger 160 damage area. 6 times the 1 shot area of the Sexton.

in my calculation the new B-4 has a slightly greater nominal 160 damage radius (2.397) than the ML-20 (2.323), giving a ~5% difference, and the nominal OHK area (for 80 HP) is only 33% greater instead of 3 times.

also, how did you define the damage per area over time? this is certainly an interesting metric, but clearly depends on the parameters used to calculate it. e.g., do you use the full AoE damage dealt or is it capped at 80 (160) HP? and do you count the whole duration of the barrage cycle including ability recharge or do you use a specified timeframe (e.g. the time it takes the B-4 to fire all 3 shells)? this would be worthwhile to know in order to put things into proper perspective.