Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

I've been wondering for a long time how to make Scavenge Doc a more favourable doc but it had lots of flaws. Even the earlier Ostwinds don't seem to have been enough to attract ppl (runs into med tank).

The volks change is an interesting one and I'm curious to see how ppl play out with it and if armor-centric builds are more likely with the better sustain.

I think adding the SdKfz 250/7 Self-Propelled Mortar would make Scavenge Doc more interesting.

Does the balance team intend to have the Fusiliers and Volks at the same reinforcement cost? Hopefully they are fixing the reinforcement bug on the Fusiliers in the test patch as well.

Hardly a proper comparison when it leaves out the bit where the 223 brings the utility of being able to give any resource sector +100% income... That stuff costs something on top of combat performance.

Or the environment in which these units start. Which is against min 1 Panzerfausts and T0 Raketens for the M20, and defenseless Infantry Sections and Rifles for the 221.

I retract my entire statement. The resource gain is actually doubled and I have no idea how I got +3 on Fuels. I need to reconsider this unit and think about it more since I had a drastically less powerful version of it going in my head.

Hardly a proper comparison when it leaves out the bit where the 223 brings the utility of being able to give any resource sector +100% income... That stuff costs something on top of combat performance.

This sinks the unit as a light vehicle, this feature should be part of an optional upgrade set aside from the combat upgrade because the timing of the 223 is horrible for its combat performances.
Alternatively, the 221 should come after the first truck is fully set up directly as a 223 and have a proper pricing, and have a fuel upgrade add the income boost feature.

Or the environment in which these units start. Which is against min 1 Panzerfausts and T0 Raketens for the M20, and defenseless Infantry Sections and Rifles for the 221.

USF and UKF start with 20 fuel, OKW with 10
USF unlocks m1 at guns or 50cal after spending 35 fuel.
The WC51 upgraded counters 221 and has no requirements whatsoever except munitions
UKF has upgraded UC after spending 30 fuel, exactly the cost of 221 + teching.
The 221 has the exact same armor as pre nerf m3 scout car (it was changed to 3.8 with health boost to make the unit more survivable to autocannons while keeping the ttk against small arms identical), which comes after 25 (10+15) fuel, meaning that Ostheer will face it WITHOUT ATG, so fausts/at nades are clearly intended as soft counters for both units

The ability on IR Halftruck is gated behind
a) a tech building
b) a unit

Smoke recon runs are good no question.

It's still non-doc though. You're almost always going to tech at least medics at some point. I think it you really want recon then the side tech and unit isn't going to hurt you that much though the fuel cost kind of stings. Still, the benefits of having it always available in any doctrine is there and I personally prefer the slow recon pass over the sometimes erratic loiter. I feel like the pass almost always shows you what you want to see before getting shot down whereas the loiter can sometimes be a complete dud... Also the regular LOS of the IR HT is still very good (yes I know it's still mostly a meme unit but it's not like it doesn't have it's uses)

It's still non-doc though. You're almost always going to tech at least medics at some point. I think it you really want recon then the side tech and unit isn't going to hurt you that much though the fuel cost kind of stings. Still, the benefits of having it always available in any doctrine is there and I personally prefer the slow recon pass over the sometimes erratic loiter. I feel like the pass almost always shows you what you want to see before getting shot down whereas the loiter can sometimes be a complete dud... Also the regular LOS of the IR HT is still very good (yes I know it's still mostly a meme unit but it's not like it doesn't have it's uses)

I agree with this, especially because OKW benefits from fully teching by unlocking one of the few good heavy tanks left.
Fully teching is always a good investment because if the opponent happen to outplay you by late game with vehicles you can use the stockpiled fuel to pull a King Tiger, so overall IR HT feels worth by lategame when the medium marathon ended 10 fuel for an 80 range vision unit is very helpful.

No love for OKW... again.

No love for OKW... again.

Well, maybe this time the Sturmtiger was fixed at least

I will test it.

USF and UKF start with 20 fuel, OKW with 10

USF and UKF need up to 40 fuel just to use weapon upgrades and grenades, OKW needs zero.

USF unlocks m1 at guns or 50cal after spending 35 fuel.

OKW gets ATG after spending zero fuel and does not need to choose between HMG OR ATG.

The WC51 upgraded counters 221 and has no requirements whatsoever except munitions

WC51 upgrade focuses on combat. 221 even as 221 is utility unit and medkit dispenser, not combat one.
WC51 does not have turret, 221 does, if you can't win against it with these two things in your head, tough luck bud.

UKF has upgraded UC after spending 30 fuel, exactly the cost of 221 + teching.

Upgraded UC doesn't heal infantry, double resource points income, doesn't detect anything up to range 85.

The 221 has the exact same armor as pre nerf m3 scout car (it was changed to 3.8 with health boost to make the unit more survivable to autocannons while keeping the ttk against small arms identical), which comes after 25 (10+15) fuel, meaning that Ostheer will face it WITHOUT ATG, so fausts/at nades are clearly intended as soft counters for both units

Wrong, wrong and once again wrong. At this point, its a micracle you didn't got faction names wrong.
M3 got the change to survive regular mine at full health.
M3 LOST EHP against infantry, its 15% less durable then it used to against small arms, and it was never addressed nor commented on.
M3 is useless at range and on its own, grens have increased faust range specifically to counter it.
Fausts are deterrent to M3.
221 will still have absolutely no threat from tommies and quite possibly cons, because its unwise to get nade upgrade early as soviets, if USF gets literally anything before tech, they aren't going to have AT nades either, which means 221 will have much more breathing space against all 3 allied faction then allied ultra lights vs axis, and don't try to bullshit anyone that it is stupid to get puppchen early, when top players clearly did just that on more then one occasion and it proved to be paying off instantly against both, UKF and sov.

USF and UKF need up to 40 fuel just to use weapon upgrades and grenades, OKW needs zero.

Nice bait

USF and UKF need up to 40 fuel just to use weapon upgrades and grenades, OKW needs zero.

And that doesn't mean it won't get an ATG way before 221 arrives, meaning that "helpless sections and riflemen" is utterly wrong

OKW gets ATG after spending zero fuel and does not need to choose between HMG OR ATG.

Completely irrelevant to the point and okw team weapons aren't anywhere as good as USF ones

WC51 upgrade focuses on combat. 221 even as 221 is utility unit and medkit dispenser, not combat one.
WC51 does not have turret, 221 does, if you can't win against it with these two things in your head, tough luck bud

Medkits are not free, they aren't included with the unit, they are same sturmpiomeers drop and nobody uses that ability
If a vehicle not having a turret is enough to make you unable to use it you may need more practise, if you get any at all

Upgraded UC doesn't heal infantry, double resource points income, doesn't detect anything up to range 85.

The 221 doesn't heal infantry, doesn't detect up to 85 range or double resource points either

Wrong, wrong and once again wrong. At this point, its a micracle you didn't got faction names wrong.
M3 got the change to survive regular mine at full health.

This is the changelog

The M3 scout car is having armour exchanged for health, giving it more survivability against lightcannons and mines while having minimal impact against small-arms. The scaling of the M3 is also being improved by allowing it to gain veterancy faster and capture territory, rewarding unit preservation into the mid-late game.

M3 is useless at range and on its own

Yep, like the 221, except that the 221 mg has lower prenetration, even compared to the frontal mg, and can't carry troops to add dps. The 221 loses against the m3

221 will still have absolutely no threat from tommies and quite possibly cons, because its unwise to get nade upgrade early as soviets, if USF gets literally anything before tech, they aren't going to have AT nades either, which means 221 will have much more breathing space against all 3 allied faction then allied ultra lights vs axis, and don't try to bullshit anyone that it is stupid to get puppchen early, when top players clearly did just that on more then one occasion and it proved to be paying off instantly against both, UKF and sov.

If you don't get at nades as soviets you get either penals and your m3 or zis before the 221 arrives
USF is not supposed to get anything before tech either, and doesn't need any side tech because both 50 cal and m1 covered by infantry will more than counter 221
UKF unlocks the at gun before 221 arrives, and upgraded UC. No faction has issues from 221 timing, this is just a myth, and if getting early at gun is not an issue for OKW I'm sure that it would not be an issue for allies either.

And that doesn't mean it won't get an ATG way before 221 arrives, meaning that "helpless sections and riflemen" is utterly wrong

221 arrive way earler than any of those for USF, its on lieutnant timing and only him can counter it. Also note that building a .50 or atgun will delay atnade unlock. It .50 or M1 or atnade.

221 arrive way earler than any of those for USF, its on lieutnant timing and only him can counter it. Also note that building a .50 or atgun will delay atnade unlock. It .50 or M1 or atnade.

That is simply false 221 5.4 frontal armor and dies to small arm fire.

221 also cost fuel and delay OKW tech.

The unit is simply badly designed and its upgrade also. It try to do too many thing at the same time and thus is average (if not up) in all of them.

That is simply false 221 5.4 frontal armor and dies to small arm fire.

221 also cost fuel and delay OKW tech.

The unit is simply badly designed and its upgrade also. It try to do too many thing at the same time and thus is average (if not up) in all of them.

as much as Pz4 dies from T-70

That is simply false 221 5.4 frontal armor and dies to small arm fire.

Just because a unit can take damage from other unit, doesn't mean its countered by it or "dies" to it.
In case you need to visualise this better, luchs damages AEC too.

221 does perfectly fine against infantry for its timing and utility role.

221 also cost fuel and delay OKW tech.

It also can increase your fuel income and speed up OKW tech once upgraded. It pays its own fuel cost after 4 mninutes of being on fuel point, then its raw profit.

The unit is simply badly designed and its upgrade also. It try to do too many thing at the same time and thus is average (if not up) in all of them.

Infantry harasser working together with infantry, which it can heal on the spot early game, vehicle detector and resource booster once upgraded.

I don't know what's so hard for you to understand here.

I often get as OST a quick scout car to harass infantry. the scout car gets lightly damaged but in return I still win these early matches engagements and force the USF enemy to hard retreat. Until USF LTD comes out, USF has no real counter to a quick scouty. I bet it's the same for OKW 221, I absolutely love 2on2s with a 1xOST + 1xOKW quick scout car infantry early game harassment play. The unit works great if used properly it has a clear early game timing window and is punishing. Also they do awesome against UKF (but everything does lol). Early Scout Cars for both OKW and OST do fine in top 200 and find play regularly. I would not say they get countered by small arms fire, that's like saying my PZ4 gets countered by a T70.

Just because a unit can take damage from other unit, doesn't mean its countered by it or "dies" to it.
In case you need to visualise this better, luchs damages AEC too.

221 does perfectly fine against infantry for its timing and utility role.

No it not.

It also can increase your fuel income and speed up OKW tech once upgraded. It pays its own fuel cost after 4 mninutes of being on fuel point, then its raw profit.

That is simply incorrect:
223 cost 320 manpower and 30 fuel and a pop of 4.

If one manages to keep it on fuel point it will return 30 fuel in 4.3 minutes but it will still not return the 320 manpower or the pop bleed. In sort Opel and Zis truck are cheaper cost no fuel and have non pop.

They are far more cost efficient.

Most people who play the game know that delaying one's vehicles by 4+minutes can be devastating.

Infantry harasser working together with infantry, which it can heal on the spot early game, vehicle detector and resource booster once upgraded.

And if you compare it with other micro light it too expensive for what it does

I don't know what's so hard for you to understand here.

OKW do not need a vehicle to fight infatry and if they want to they can already use the kubel. They need a vehicle to fight enemy micro light like WC51/UC/M3A3 or counter to sniper.

In sort:
"It tries to do too many thing at the same time and thus is average (if not up) in all of them."

I don't know what's so hard for you to understand here.

If one manages to keep it on fuel point it will return 30 fuel in 4.3 minutes but it will still not return the 320 manpower or the pop bleed. In sort Opel and Zis truck are cheaper cost no fuel and have non pop.

They are far more cost efficient.

Sorry mate, you couldn't be any more wrong again. Denying or retaking a point from the enemy is far more advantageous than putting an Opel/Zis truck on the field. Forcing the enemy to retreat their early infantry when they only got 3-4 cappers on the field and taking their point back is also more advantageous than an Opel/Zis truck. Knowing what the enemy is doing through recon is far more advantageous than an Opel/Zis truck. Heck, any field presence is better than sitting there with a Opel truck. That's literally basic play there. Know your fights with recon, deny the enemy early game resources and caps, force the enemy to do early retreats = massive steps toward victory. Putting an Opel/Zis truck and saying it's better = steps towards losing. Even a late game vet3 scout car sitting there just giving views over the battlefield is better than the meme trucks. The game doesn't work in blank excel sheet comparison.

It is fine. Good recon unit, can provide healing and return its investment after an upgrade. Pretty much if sov gets t2 it can do whatever before forcing an early AT or nade package. If USF skips weapon rack/nades 221 will start against rifles with snares, but still has a window before m20 to pressure enemy, unless lieutenant goes for zook. UKF pretty much has to embrace the bleed or rely on cheeky at nade from RE or UC damage.