Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Jaeger Armor Doctrine is too potent in team games.
Combination Elephant + spoting scope + recon overflight + AT strafe is so good. This commander is picket 2x more, then second one and overshadow all others commanders.

I suggest replace recon overflight with Puma.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine is too potent in team games.
Combination Elephant + spoting scope + recon overflight + AT strafe is so good. This commander is picket 2x more, then second one and overshadow all others commanders.

I suggest replace recon overflight with Puma.

Recon overflight could be replaced with infantry or armor detection.
AT hardcounters for all vehicles at all stages of the game is a terrible idea.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine is too potent in team games.
Combination Elephant + spoting scope + recon overflight + AT strafe is so good. This commander is picket 2x more, then second one and overshadow all others commanders.

I suggest replace recon overflight with Puma.

Puma over recon would be a buff.

A puma with scopes would also be rather broken.

Strafe seem to be the biggest issue at the moment.

Puma over recon would be a buff.

A puma with scopes would also be rather broken.

Strafe seem to be the biggest issue at the moment.

Strafe + recon in one commander is OP in all factions.

G43 Panzergrenadiers are good enough:
- Good dps at any range, so opponent can't exploit lack of long range dps as well anymore and there's not nearly as much pressure to close in.
- Better at chasing with good moving dps.
- 20% sight bonus.
- Interrogation.

It's not as high a priority as getting lmgs on Grens, but it's still a good idea in the mid/late game when it gets increasingly harder to close the distance and more vehicles start popping up.

They're also a good replacement for wiped Grens, as they're much more verstatile than lmg Grens, if you can forgive their lack of a snare.

I didn't think about the upgrade in this light. It makes me better understand it's uses more besides the explanations of it mostly being a side grade

Eh, depends how you want to look at it.

No. There is 1 thing your not considering. There is a lot of difference between auto weapons compared to semi's(or slower firing weapon). the Semi's have high damage per shot and have decent space in between them. But every time they fire they can change targets.
On the other hand auto's have lower damage but fire a lot of shots in bunch with gaps between bursts. While in burst the target does not change, the target may change om different bursts.
As a consequence of this auto weapons are drop opposition models faster than semi's even if they have the same DPS number.

As an example.
USF Airborne have RA of 0.95 and their Carbines have ~ 10.5 dps(0-3) with 6 men
Ost Assgrens have RA of 0.95 and their mp40's have ~ 10.5 dps(0-10) with 5 men

despite this assgrens would still win at point blank range.

Why because they model loss on the opponent faster because of their auto weapons.

That's why at shorter ranges the mp44 performs significantly better than g43's.

No. There is 1 thing your not considering. There is a lot of difference between auto weapons compared to semi's(or slower firing weapon). the Semi's have high damage per shot and have decent space in between them. But every time they fire they can change targets.
On the other hand auto's have lower damage but fire a lot of shots in bunch with gaps between bursts. While in burst the target does not change, the target may change om different bursts.
As a consequence of this auto weapons are drop opposition models faster than semi's even if they have the same DPS number.

As an example.
USF Airborne have RA of 0.95 and their Carbines have ~ 10.5 dps(0-3) with 6 men
Ost Assgrens have RA of 0.95 and their mp40's have ~ 10.5 dps(0-10) with 5 men

despite this assgrens would still win at point blank range.

Why because they model loss on the opponent faster because of their auto weapons.

That's why at shorter ranges the mp44 performs significantly better than g43's.

I think you got it the other way round.

Units don't change at which model they are shooting. What happens with weapons with the property of focus fire false is that some of the shots that should go against the model they are shooting are instead rolled against models which are nearby (it's not a reroll).

Jaeger Armor still hasn't seen anymore changes. The spotting scopes was 100% deserved and great to see but it needs a change to the AT strafe. It's to effective of a call in. Compare it for example with the ISU commanders that go a strafing run. Those commanders are now much less overwhelming compared to other commanders. Yet Jaeger Armor seems like it's just gonna be the auto pick commander forever because it's AT call in got replaced with a different AT call in. It just needs to be replaced with something weaker in effect. Ambush training could fit well in the doctrine by possibly letting your infantry get close and snare enemy armor.

Joint Operation is the other doctrine I'm worried about because I think it may actually end up weaker than the old version. It's now got the LeFh, Pak 43, and Resupply Station which are all expensive buildables. It's already kind if difficult to get the LeFh and Pak43 out but now it's lost the off map in favor of having to choose whether to get another expensive buildable. Remove the Pak 43 and replace it with the old light artillery barrage or just something that isn't an expensive buildable.

Pls do not pretend to know what the majority of people think of the SVT.

Regardless what you think the SVT in game is semi auto (carbine according to Relic) yet it was changed by the MOD team in their first patch not to follow the carbine profile of other weapons like:
G43 PF/Grenadier
M1 riflemen
RE carbine
USF crew carbine
elite m1 carbine paras/ranger

for no apparent reason and with disastrous result I might add making Penal completely broken (SVT/Flamer/ourah) for 6 month.

I don't see anyone say the SVT-40 is broken except for you. The SVT still functions like a semi-automatic rifle in-game, in fact the only thing actually broken is that the fire sound only seems to play 50% of the time (which i have put in bug reports but it wasn't fixed last i checked). The "no apparent reason" was actually because nobody really used Penals and T1 had no AT at the time. If I'm reading these notes right their SVT stats used to be worse than a Grenadier Kar 98k.

That comes in contrast with what you posted a couple of post before:

K98 is bolt action and SVT is linear up to range 6 where it become flat.

Fact remains that other carbines weapon have curve in their DPS profile while SVT does not.

It does not contradict what I said. The SVT has a DPS curve, it's just a shallow curve similar to the Grenadier's Kar 98k, rather than a steep one like most other Semi-Autos.

As I already have pointed SVT is the exception so if there is a need for change it should follow the rest of weapons and not the other round.

Unless one want to complete redesign carbine profile and change all the carbine weapons. Even then the result will simply to reduce the effect of relative positioning is small arm fire something that should be avoided.

The SVT is consistent with the profile, it just has a shallower damage curve. The "Carbine" profile is actually one of the most consistent in the game including the SVT.

Let's take a look at the "Assault Rifle" profile which includes the Sturmpioneer StG, Panzergrenadier StG, M1918 BAR, and FG-42. The Sturmpioneer StG has a near of 3 and follows a slope down to 28; the Panzergreandier StG has a near of 5 and a steady slope until it's max range, the M1918 BAR has a near of 5 where it hits a cliff and then a steep curve until 13 and continues downward at a shallow angle; the FG-42 is flat until 8 and then hits a steady downward slope ending with the highest DPS at far range of any non-LMG.

The standard Bolt-Action profile also has a wide variety of rifles from the steep curve of the Mosin-Nagant to the shallow curve of the Lee-Enfield.

On the move, the G43 is good. For cover to cover fights, they are a downgrade to equal in most scenarios

If this is the case then it does support the idea of restoring the anti-cover bonuses to the G43, and it won't actually be too strong for Panzergrenadiers if they're currently lacking in that department. Although changing the profile to SVT and reinstating the cover bonus is likely too strong, only one solution should be tried for now.

I am fine with G43 PGrens being a side grade, but a side grade should change the role. I don't think the G43 upgrade really does that. G43s PGrens are still the squad that charges into the enemy position. They're still your best bet as OST to cut into retreating units. The sprint ability that is part of the upgrade partially contradicts the weapon that is the main reason to upgrade. G43s are good on the move but not THAT much better that they would offer you a really different option when assaulting because this advantage fades once you don't move (which will also happen during an assault). They are worse on static defense but also not THAT much worse that it would change the way I use PGrens. The upgrade does not really offer a hugely different play style.

That makes it boring. G43s transform Grenadiers from static defenders into a mobile offensive squad. Pgrens get changed from a mobile offensive squad in a slightly different mobile offensive squad.

People have suggested in the past that they should get a Jaeger Light Infantry Recon G43 DMR which would change their role a bit, but I'm not sure how good that would be paired with 3 Assault Rifles. It might be too strong because it can snipe models that were chipped away by the assault rifles, or it might be too weak because the assault rifles don't deal enough damage at long range and eliminate models faster than the marksman's rifle at close range.

It may be a bad idea to have the Jeager Light Infantry upgrade grant 2 different types of G43's to 2 different units, which would exacerbate the confusion surrounding the different G43's and their roles.

People have suggested in the past that they should get a Jaeger Light Infantry Recon G43 DMR which would change their role a bit, but I'm not sure how good that would be paired with 3 Assault Rifles. It might be too strong because it can snipe models that were chipped away by the assault rifles, or it might be too weak because the assault rifles don't deal enough damage at long range and eliminate models faster than the marksman's rifle at close range.

Maybe replace the current grenadier one with the PGren one and give the DMR G43 (only one) to grenadiers themselves at 60 Munitions. So we have,

3 G43 Rifles Pgrens with additional 10% RA for their loss in close range DPS. Basically upgrade makes your PGs more durable in return for the lost close range DPS.

And,

1 G43 DMR Grenadiers, basically locking out the LMG42 and makes them a support squad rather than a standalone squad. Just like JLI but with a later timing. (Maybe even reduce the Gren G43 Snipe treshold to 60% between JLI 75 and Pathfinder 50).


EDIT : I feel like I'm gonna receive a lot of hate for this suggestion.

It may be a bad idea to have the Jeager Light Infantry upgrade grant 2 different types of G43's to 2 different units, which would exacerbate the confusion surrounding the different G43's and their roles.

And maybe this achieves to actually make sense having the same looking upgrade on different squads but still reinforcing each of their roles as close range assault squad and long range support infantry.

Why there are people who think PG G43 need anything?

They were meta prior to osttruppen and VSL and contrary to the 2 latter, they weren't nerfed in any way.

Why there are people who think PG G43 need anything?

They were meta prior to osttruppen and VSL and contrary to the 2 latter, they weren't nerfed in any way.

They were meta probably because the meta in that time was Heavy Tanks and Lightning War was just too strong in that meta. It was probably not the PGrens that created that meta but it was rather a side product of Lightning war having both G43, a global sprint for 40seconds (which made chasing much easier), skillplanes AND a Tiger.

I don't see anyone say the SVT-40 is broken except for you.

Actually nobody said that SVT is broken including me. What I have said is that profile is different than other carbines and that is fact.

The SVT still functions like a semi-automatic rifle in-game, in fact the only thing actually broken is that the fire sound only seems to play 50% of the time (which i have put in bug reports but it wasn't fixed last i checked). The "no apparent reason" was actually because nobody really used Penals and T1 had no AT at the time. If I'm reading these notes right their SVT stats used to be worse than a Grenadier Kar 98k.

You are missing the point completly, a weapon can be buff or nerfed for balance reasons, changing the weapon profile to be different than other weapons of the same profile was something that was done for no apparent reason.

And I do have to point out that the change was so badly designed that Penal ended to be broken for 6 month and their had to be several patches in effort to fix them. And even now 5 years later they are still being "fixed".

It does not contradict what I said. The SVT has a DPS curve, it's just a shallow curve similar to the Grenadier's Kar 98k, rather than a steep one like most other Semi-Autos.

It does, bolt action rifles and Carbines uses different profiles and different ways of delivering that damage. The fact that is might be similar to K98 mean that is not similar to other Carbines.

The SVT is consistent with the profile, it just has a shallower damage curve. The "Carbine" profile is actually one of the most consistent in the game including the SVT.

Let's take a look at the "Assault Rifle" profile which includes the Sturmpioneer StG, Panzergrenadier StG, M1918 BAR, and FG-42. The Sturmpioneer StG has a near of 3 and follows a slope down to 28; the Panzergreandier StG has a near of 5 and a steady slope until it's max range, the M1918 BAR has a near of 5 where it hits a cliff and then a steep curve until 13 and continues downward at a shallow angle; the FG-42 is flat until 8 and then hits a steady downward slope ending with the highest DPS at far range of any non-LMG.

The standard Bolt-Action profile also has a wide variety of rifles from the steep curve of the Mosin-Nagant to the shallow curve of the Lee-Enfield.

At this point your arguments simply defy logic and contradict each other.

On one hand you claim that difference of SVT is trivial because it simply "has a shallower damage curve" on the other hand you claim that giving the G43 a similar "shallower damage curve" would benefit the unit allot making the upgrade worth it.

You simply has to choose weather SVT behaves as other carbines and the fact that is has a unique profile when it comes to carbine weapons is trivial or if that profile actually provide a true advantage and could turn the G43 from mediocre to good.

I am not sure you continue to focus on the SVT though in thread about Ostheer.

I suggest that if you want to debate weapon profiles you start a thread about it since this is not really the place for such a debate.

Actually nobody said that SVT is broken including me. What I have said is that profile is different than other carbines and that is fact.

Maybe we just have a fundamental disagreement on what weapon profiles actually even are. You seem firmly convinced all semi-automatic rifles must have high close range damage followed by a steep curve with zero deviation, and I disagree with that.

It does, bolt action rifles and Carbines uses different profiles and different ways of delivering that damage. The fact that is might be similar to K98 mean that is not similar to other Carbines.

It having similar DPS to the Kar 98k is irrelevant to whether or not it's got a Carbine profile.

On one hand you claim that difference of SVT is trivial because it simply "has a shallower damage curve" on the other hand you claim that giving the G43 a similar "shallower damage curve" would benefit the unit allot making the upgrade worth it.

It's very simple, the shallower damage curve on the SVT only gives it a moderate boost at range because of it's unusually low near damage for a Semi-Auto Rifle. However the G43 has exceptional near damage for a Carbine, therefor applying the DPS curve to it would result in a rifle with a lot more power over range.

I am not sure you continue to focus on the SVT though in thread about Ostheer.

I suggest that if you want to debate weapon profiles you start a thread about it since this is not really the place for such a debate.

Says the person who launched this debate about the SVT. I came here with a simple suggestion and used the SVT as a reference, but you've got a vendetta against the SVT's damage curve and derailed the discussion by making it about the SVT instead of the JLI G43.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine is too potent in team games.
Combination Elephant + spoting scope + recon overflight + AT strafe is so good. This commander is picket 2x more, then second one and overshadow all others commanders.

I suggest replace recon overflight with Puma.

While you might be onto something there I think fortified armour doctrine has some perks. The p4 command tank can now mark targets for the elefant. That sounds pretty good to me. And panzer tactician is useful ability even after the nerf to it IMO

EDIT : I feel like I'm gonna receive a lot of hate for this suggestion.

And maybe this achieves to actually make sense having the same looking upgrade on different squads but still reinforcing each of their roles as close range assault squad and long range support infantry.

I like the suggestion on paper. The g43 is iconic and yet I feel like it's usually not great on grenadiers in current form, so anything that remedies that Im interested in

But, they do have the sniper. Big issue there cause pathfinders and JLI are both on the only factions that don't have snipers. I want to like it, but I feel like the sniping could get out of hand

I think it's good enough on PGs as is, but I agree you don't pick a commander for it specifically

Well I do not know if the G43 is getting any further changes, but I do believe it was based off the svt40 in real life because the Germans liked the svt40 so much they wanted their own version which arguably became more powerful than the svt40, unlike the G41 which was not a reliable weapon like the svt40.

With that said I know balance is more important than historical accuracy in this game. Some people argue g43 is not good on panzer gren and others apparently think it's really good, and lastly there are those who say it is situational and just a side grade or just 'okay' I know Imperial Dane finds the G43 redundant on panzer gren. It is kind of strange to me. I think it'd make more sense to give them a scoped stg44 upgrade instead of g43s however as far as I'm aware in this game scoped stgs only exist as infrared for the obers in certain okw doctrines

Also the g43 being a close range weapon for grenadiers is also strange when the rifle comes with scopes for increased site. I like the survivability change and use of model 24 grenades but something still feels off to me. However maybe this change is fine how it is. I do not know. When I use G43 grenadiers in the beta it almost feels like I am using a panzer grenadier squad

They were meta probably because the meta in that time was Heavy Tanks and Lightning War was just too strong in that meta. It was probably not the PGrens that created that meta but it was rather a side product of Lightning war having both G43, a global sprint for 40seconds (which made chasing much easier), skillplanes AND a Tiger.

Since ostruppen 'nerf', top players started using Yeager Infantry doctrine a lot and g43 PGrens with it. I used it myself a lot, since this is my top OST picked doctrine.

As an example.
USF Airborne have RA of 0.95 and their Carbines have ~ 10.5 dps(0-3) with 6 men
Ost Assgrens have RA of 0.95 and their mp40's have ~ 10.5 dps(0-10) with 5 men

I tested this and could not replicate results at point blank. Paras won repeatedly.


Also, guys, carbines are shorter rifles. M1 is a semi auto-rifle. M1A1 Carbine is a carbine. It is smaller, shorter (and fires smaller cartridge, but this is irrelevant to the term). Thus G43 is not a carbine, same with SVT. You can make a carbine out of SMLE, Kar98 or Mosin Nagant by shortening the barrel. The term came from cavalry that used shortened muskets. Although in Russian 'carbine' for some reason is a semi auto rifle.

Also, guys, carbines are shorter rifles. M1 is a semi auto-rifle. M1A1 Carbine is a carbine. It is smaller, shorter (and fires smaller cartridge, but this is irrelevant to the term). Thus G43 is not a carbine, same with SVT. You can make a carbine out of SMLE, Kar98 or Mosin Nagant by shortening the barrel. The term came from cavalry that used shortened muskets. Although in Russian 'carbine' for some reason is a semi auto rifle.

I'm aware, hence the use of quotation marks as it's not technically correct, but it is officially correct. When Relic introduced weapon profiles, they named them as such:

• bolt-action rifle
  
• submachine gun
  
• assault rifle
  
• carbine rifle
  
• light machine gun
  
• pistol

Most of these are self-explanatory, except "Carbine" which is incorrect but they used it to represent semi-automatic rifles. Also "Assault Rifle" originally only applied to the StG which was correct, but they later added the BAR and FG-42 to it as well, which are not technically correct because they are automatic rifles or light machine guns depending on how you wish to define them.

Also I hope Close Air Support can get some little buff. I feel like it's gonna be left behind with the buffs to luftwaffe supply doctrine. At least maybe consider the supply drop zone to be more bundled together so it doesn't take so long to resources from it. It would be neat to see something like the luftwaffe field officer in the commander though.