Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

I'm gonna blow your mind, there's another elefant commander and it's not dominating the meta. Sooo, try again

Here is something more to blow your mind. Jaeger Armor is Free while Fortified armor is not. Everyone has access to it and so everyone will only use that instead of grinding or chilling for the other. Again the moment you Remove Elephant from that commander it will stop being META.

I mean, i think that's partially just because Jaeger Armour is pretty much just a better version of that commander. If both commanders were equally good, I'd say they'd possibly both dominate the meta.

i doubt that. Compared to Jager Armor, Fortified Armor has more solid abilities. Panzer Tactician is just OP. Hull down is srsly crazy if you think about a 1280 hp 63 range Panther(even more now that hull down don't require pios), Command tank that makes your units even harder to kill Elephant included. JA has 2 useful abilities scopes and Ele. the JU87 has very situational uses. The Real Reason why people use JA is because it's Free. You don't need to play or grind for that. As a result you get acclimated to using it and never bother with learning FA.

Here is something more to blow your mind. Jaeger Armor is Free while Fortified armor is not. Everyone has access to it and so everyone will only use that instead of grinding or chilling for the other. Again the moment you Remove Elephant from that commander it will stop being META.

Lol this is irrelevant for the vast majority of players. If you play enough CoH2 all of the commanders are free

Furthermore has nothing to do with what I'm saying. The AT strafe is a problem and needs to go

Lol this is irrelevant for the vast majority of players. If you play enough CoH2 all of the commanders are free

Furthermore has nothing to do with what I'm saying. The AT strafe is a problem and needs to go

Offtopic side note: I get a commander every 80-100 hours of play time, half of them are random.
So no, practically commanders are not 'free' because you can't really earn them. There is no way to play 'enough' CoH2 because Relic set the earning rate fricken low.

Offtopic out

Lol this is irrelevant for the vast majority of players. If you play enough CoH2 all of the commanders are free

Furthermore has nothing to do with what I'm saying. The AT strafe is a problem and needs to go

It is Relevant. By the point you get all commanders for free, We are very acclimated to Jaeger Armor and have zero reason to choose Fortified armor just for elephant. And since You can't dop anything about Allied TD's without Ele JA will always be META.

The Strafe can go but it won't stop the Doc from being META bro.

Similarly imo mark target was the bigger problem on ISU commander. Merchanized support is way more popular than Shock motor

The primary goal for removing the IL-2 bombs from both was to make the ISU less meta and make room for other commanders, not to make the other ISU commander more viable. This goal seems to have been achieved based on the recent statistics (https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1616976000/4v4/soviet) where the ISU is now at the low end of the top 3 most popular commanders.

Now Jaeger Armor imo needs more adjustments in order to achieve the same. Although one could argue that the Elefant will always be top pick for Ostheer loadouts because (more so than the ISU) it fills a big hole in the stock line-up, because Ostheer doesn't have a proper 60 range TD.


With scopes nerfed on the Elefant, and with Hull Down and the CP4 buffed, I expect Fortified Armor to rise in popularity already. Although I think it wouldn't hurt to look for a replacement for the AT strafe.

The primary goal for removing the IL-2 bombs from both was to make the ISU less meta and make room for other commanders, not to make the other ISU commander more viable. This goal seems to have been achieved based on the recent statistics (https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1616976000/4v4/soviet) where the ISU is now at the low end of the top 3 most popular commanders.

Now Jaeger Armor imo needs more adjustments in order to achieve the same. Although one could argue that the Elefant will always be top pick for Ostheer loadouts because (more so than the ISU) it fills a big hole in the stock line-up, because Ostheer doesn't have a proper 60 range TD.

How Much can you nerf JA doc. Even if you remove Recon or Scope or Even both as long as there is Elephant in it and allies have 60 Range TD's this will be picked. Because the META of allied team games are TD's and arty.

Elefant
Show Spoiler
Can we now make spotting scope have some use on the move?
For instance add 10 sight like other sight upgrades (keep total sight the same or even lower)
Sight bonus linger for 2 after the unit moves, so that cases mate do not go through the sight circle of rotating losing sight, rotating losing sight.


Mobile Observation Post

Merged with Reigal AT Mine; cannot be used with spotting scopes

Is Mobile Observation Post even available with spotting scopes? Does that mean MOP has been move to Jaeger Armor Doctrine?

Here is something more to blow your mind. Jaeger Armor is Free while Fortified armor is not. Everyone has access to it and so everyone will only use that instead of grinding or chilling for the other. Again the moment you Remove Elephant from that commander it will stop being META.

Game is 7 years old.
Literally everyone got it by now as its included in complete editions and frequently on -75% or more sale.

The only reason why you wouldn't have it is if you don't play the game at all.

Tiger commanders

Overall well designed commander but one that imo should lose the "Fragmentation Run" which is one of the best off map available to Ostheer.
Panzer officer will better fit the theme, similar to luftwaffe officer with the ability to supervise repairs on vehicles, body guards using tank crew's skins

Assault Support Doctrine

Artillery officer--->Replace by Panzer Officer
Cargo Truck - Opel Blitz
JU-87 Anti-infantry strafe
Fragmentation Run--->Breakthrough or Forward Resupply Station or supply drop or counter attack tactics

Tiger

Removing Stuka CAS for similar reasons.

Lighting War Doctrine

Jaeger Light Infantry
Tactical Movement
Relief infantry
Stuka CAS--->Smoke bombs or Incidiary bombing
Tiger

Since PG are available from HQ the passenger of the Mechanized Assault Group could be more unique

Mechanized Assault Doctrine

Assault Grenadiers
Mechanized Assault Group--->250 now a CP 1 comes with engineer from the campaign 5 men with lower DPS
Stug III Ausf. E
Light Artillery Barrage
Tiger

Removing Fragmentation run for the same reason.

Spearhead Doctrine

Mortar HT
Panzer Tactician
Recon Overflight
Fragmentation Run--->Stuka AT strafe or Stuka AI strafe
Tiger

Game is 7 years old.
Literally everyone got it by now as its included in complete editions and frequently on -75% or more sale.

The only reason why you wouldn't have it is if you don't play the game at all.

Let me blow your mind, not every one started playing since the BETA, many people have alt accounts, not everyone is willing to pay for game-play micro transactions and list continues. Let me explain something, If the only good thing JA doc is Elephant this will still be the META doc.

We've had this discussion already.
DLC commander are also being changed.
Go farm war spoils and stop complaining.

Lol this is irrelevant for the vast majority of players. If you play enough CoH2 all of the commanders are free

Furthermore has nothing to do with what I'm saying. The AT strafe is a problem and needs to go

With next update when OKW lose spotting flares it is pretty unnecessary and a big nerf for 3v3/4v4 axis viable gameplay options.

Can agree, that currently while flares don't have a warning it is too easy for axis teams to catch a calliope/priest/sexton with flare + AT strafe combo, but without flares allies have more than enough time to react and save own arty, so it unnecessary to nerf axis 3v3 and 4v4 loadouts even more.

The new LEFH ability is still a meme. I will not choose LeFH over werfer because of this and neither will anyone capable of thought. On the paper there is nothing going for artillery compared to werfer / stuka besides the range but that literally does not matter because the latter are mobile. Static artillery has worse survivability, lethality and requires commander pick when compared to werfer, stuka and katy. Since balance team removed the anti mobile arty CB ability from the game THE ONLY REMAINING WAY TO MAKE STATIC ARTILLERY VIABLE is to increase its lethality. The way to fix this issue is not through pseudo buff clown abilities like airburst on LeFH and smoke on ML20 and instead of just crying balance team bad, I'm actually going to give you the 200iq concept solution on how to fix this issue pro bono:

NEW VET 1 ABILITY FOR ML20 and LEFH: MILITARY DRILL
-COST 60 MUNI
-COOLDOWN 60s
-REDUCE BARRAGE COOLDOWN TO 0

Turning the static artillery into "muni dump hurt machine" is the most fair way to increase lethality and make static artillery relevant without resorting into using gimmick abilities. This would also tackle the question of "why build LeFH or ML20 when it has such short lifespan in 3v3 and 4v4 games?" By allowing static artillery to lash out immense amount of damage by burning through munition storage it finally has a potential become worthwhile investment if opponents team would also need some time to save up for 1 click delete ability.

Spearhead Doctrine
.....
Fragmentation Run--->Stuka AT strafe or Stuka AI strafe
.....

Nope I actually like whats in spearhead doctrine and no one complains spearhead is OP. so remove it Ass support.

hey why not let stormtroopers be able switch out their shrecks like how sturm pios used to do.

Not a fan of taking away scopes from Elefant.

The Elefant has been nerfed so hard over the years that taking away the scopes is just the nail in the coffin for this unit. breaking news: It's dead since the IL-2 strafe in Soviet airbonre and ram (still not fixed).

Also it is lazy design just like the Tank Commander not working for the OKW Command Tiger.

Just replace the ability in the doc if the premium heavy isn't supposed to get it.

Smoke could work, though that is too similar to the other Elefant doc. So keep the scopes.

New abilities for Jaeger armor Doctrine

CP 2 Mobile observation Post
CP 4 Reconnaissance overflight
CP 5 spotting scopes
CP 10 Stuka JU-87 Anti-Tank Strafe
CP 15 Elefant Tank Destroyer
(maybe update the XLS?)

Does the commander need "Reconnaissance overflight" since it now has access to flare from MOP?

Imo there is should be a warning in the spotting scope that disables the MOP, even better if the MOP was separate call in vehicle that did not have the option to upgrade with scopes.

Some ideas for commander changes

Assault Support
Frag Bombs ---> Stuka AT Strafe
Although a pretty decent commander in terms of how much it's played this commander overlaps heavily with Spearhead as both share the Tiger + Frag Bombs combo. They do differ in some things but changing this overlap would help assault support stand out better compared to spearhead (which I would say is overall better). The AT strafe would give this commander a possibly different niche compared to spearhead by having quick call ins to deal with enemy armor and infantry but not having as effective a tool against team weapons. It would make them strong against different counters to the Tiger.

Close Air Support
Supply Drop Run ---> Condense the resource crates into fewer drops that contain the same resources.
Stuka AI Strafe ---> Luftwaffe Field Officer
Close Air Support is a very underpicked commander due to it's horrible reliance on munitions and the fact that it has all of it's slots taken up with various air abilties. The Luftwaffe Field Officer doesn't addrress that issue but does overall give the commander some extra utility with the extra abilities he can bring. A buff to the supply drop by making it faster to happen would be a minor boost to make it less time consuming and micro intensive (fewer drops you have to pick).

Festung Support
Mortar Halftrack ---> LeFh 18
Forward Resupply Station ---> Make buildable without needing a ambient building
Festung Support did get a nice set of new abilities but I do think it needs further tweaking. The current changes to all the ostheer commanders makes it so only 2 of them will remain with LeFh. Compared to the Soviets this is actually pretty one sided now. The Soviets with their current commander changes would retain 3 commanders with the ML20 and 2 with the B4. I agree ostheer doesn't need 6 commanders with LeFh but cutting it down by 2/3 I think is a little extreme. I think festung makes a lot of sense to keep it's LeFh and rather toss out the mortar halftrack which to me is a more aggressive form of indirect which I believe is kinda out of line with the idea of this commander. Beyond that change I think forward resupply station needs to be able to be built without an ambient building as this makes it heavily reliant on the map to be useful. The repair bunker bundled on I don't think makes up for it.

German Mechanized
Spotting Scopes ---> Combined Arms
The removal of the LeFh from this commander makes the Spotting scopes no longer make much sense. There are no off map abilties, there is no artillery, there isn't even really any unit that can benefit from the extra sightlines. Something like Combined Arms as a buff would be a excellent addition to the commander to combine with the halftrack and command panzer.

Jaeger Armor
Stuka AT Strafe ---> Something low impact. My suggestion would be ambush training.
Jaeger Armor is still an overperforming doctrine in larger team games and the recent spotting scopes nerf will have an impact on that but it's not enough imo. The AT strafe is a very powerful ability and hasn't weakened that commander slot much from the stuka bombing strike. It needs to be changed again to something even weaker. My suggestion is ambush training which I think fits a bit into the commander while not being to powerful. It would in theory be a tool that allows you infantry to amubsh enemy armor with panzerfausts from grens and panzershrecks from panzergrens.

Joint Operations
Pak 43 ---> Light Artillery Barrage
Forward Resupply Station ---> Needs to be buildable with a ambient building (see Festung Support for reasoning)
I think removing the LAB from this commander was a bit of a mistake as it was a very nice ability to give his commander a relatively cheap way to harass enemy positions. The issue with having both the PaK43 and LeFh is that this abilities often are only chosen as one or the other due to the cost. The Pak43 exists in a decent amount of commanders already so I think it's fine to cut it from here and instead focus this commander more as the artillery commander overall.


Other units that need something
Assault Grenadiers - Give sprint back or give some new abilty to make up for now delayed sprint (like a slight improvement to their weapons or a slight boost to their RA).
Tactical Movement - Maybe a small RA bonus while active (-5% or -10%).
Model 24 Stun Grenade - Bundle with something to be more worthwhile. Maybe put it in breakthrough equipment?
Jaeger Light Infantry Upgrade - Slight cost reduction (like to 50 munitions).

Not a fan of taking away scopes from Elefant.

The Elefant has been nerfed so hard over the years that taking away the scopes is just the nail in the coffin for this unit. breaking news: It's dead since the IL-2 strafe in Soviet airbonre and ram (still not fixed).

Also it is lazy design just like the Tank Commander not working for the OKW Command Tiger.

Just replace the ability in the doc if the premium heavy isn't supposed to get it.

Smoke could work, though that is too similar to the other Elefant doc. So keep the scopes.

Why?
Why should the Elefant be the only unit (besides the SU85) that does not need a spotter to use superior range?

And the the Elefant has not been nerfed hard. It is literally a strong meta in everything except 1v1.