Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

OK, So US can have as many 5 man OBERS with the strongest SMG in the game, but ost has to be restricted to 1 assault unit who has the worst smg(discounting pio/sapper) in the game. That is some insane logic bro. Yeah not restrict PG's to 1 unit too what about make m42 restricted to 1 unit aswell maybe even pioneers cause wher armor is soooooooo.... OP.

Dude, read first, complain later. Assgren unit would of course be a lot stronger if it arrives significantly later. Idea is a longshot anyway.

Dude, read first, complain later. Assgren unit would of course be a lot stronger if it arrives significantly later. Idea is a longshot anyway.

No why should ost be restricted to 1 Ass gren even buffed. Rangers/Paras/Shocks/Mandos are significantly stronger yet there is no restriction on them. Why kind of bullshit suggestion is that. How the F are more OP infantry so balanced in your eyes.

I like most of the changes to Ostheer.

My suggestion is specifically regarding luftwaffe supply. Luftwaffe supply used to be picked for two reasons, the medical resupply drop, and the resource drop. Now that the resource drop is being removed completely from the commander, it no longer has that flavor of being a doctrine focused around infantry being resupplied by air.

For those who do not remember, back in the day, medical supply drop used to be busted. Units affected by it could heal in combat, and became unstoppable juggernaughts. After this ability was removed, the ability became confused.

Why would you drop 3 healing crates at the frontline, when you likely only need 1 to buff the squads up there. Why would you drop them at base, when you can spend double the munitions and have permanent healing?

My change, would be to reduce the medical resupply drop to just 1 crate, and reduce the price to 10-15 munitions. This way, the ability can be used at the front to preserve flavor, and to revitalize it. I do not know the exact stats of the buff the crates give to combat, but those can be adjusted as well.

I also would like the resource drop to stay in the commander, and not keep the airdropped weapon crates, but that is just personal preference. Both abilities fit in the commander's theme. That said, the reason airdropped weapon crates is a good ability in Ostruppen is because Ostruppen are cheap crew models. I do not think the ability will work well outside of that doctrine.

Why would you drop 3 healing crates at the frontline, when you likely only need 1 to buff the squads up there.

Because the buff stacks 3 times.

Because the buff stacks 3 times.

Does it really? Do you happen to have the exact numbers on it?

Does it really? Do you happen to have the exact numbers on it?

Of the top of my head, its sth like 10-15% accuracy and -10% rec acc per crate, something like that, last between 30 and 60 seconds.
Healing in combat was removed, but stat buffs remained untouched.

Edit: Found it:
Show Spoiler

Thx for the update, very appreciated!

About the Riegel merge:

1. Option: MOP + Riegel (new ability:251 Support Package): SR and MD

2. Option: Entrenching Tools (Osttuppen doc)+ Riegel = new ability: Defensive Tools

3. Option: Stun Grenade (Elite Doc) + Riegel =new ability:Tactical Support Tools

There is an idea to make option 1 but as an upgrade so player won't be able to get spotting scopes in the same time. We will see. Thing is that Riegel is left only in elefant commander. Combine it with anything else may buff elefant commander which we would prefer to avoid.

Of the top of my head, its sth like 10-15% accuracy and -10% rec acc per crate, something like that, last between 30 and 60 seconds.
Healing in combat was removed, but stat buffs remained untouched.

Edit: Found it:
Show Spoiler

Thanks! Did not realize it stacked. Will have to give that a try. Seems a bit much if that is for each crate, but I dunno.

Some ideas/thoughts
I really like the artillery call in on the Command Panzer IV over the mark target ability. It seems very useful to harass/disrupt the enemy alongside the smokeshot.

Puma might need another tiny buff to see a further better timing. The observation post is a fine little change and the other buffs are nice but the puma still comes really late timing wise.

Breakthrough Equipment and Model 24 Stun Grenades could possibly be combined which would provide a minor buff to Elite Troops and Strategic Reserves. Would provide a very small buff to two commanders that don’t need much but are still a tad lackluster over some other options. The Tiger Ace buff for sure is a good buff to them but this should be a nice little boost without shaking them up too much.

CAS Commander
Supply Drop Zone - Rework to just be a Fuel to Munitions exchange
Stuka AI Strafe - Replaced with Luftwaffe Field Officer
Stuka AT Strafe - Replaced with Stuka Close Air Support
Replacing some of the relatively low impact effects with some more impactful ones should improve this doctrine which has struggled for a long time. Making the drop zone better at keeping munitions flowing by exchanging excess fuel later in the game could make it easier to use the various air support options.

Festung Support Commander
Mortar Halftrack replaced with LeFh 18
Relief Infantry - Needs a different rework
Forward Resupply Station - Possible change explained below.
Festung Support got some nice changes but I disagree with the removal of the LeFh 18 from the doctrine. A mortar halftrack is a cheap, mobile, and overall more aggressive form of indirect fire while most of the abilities within this commander seem to be promoting a slower and more defensive style. The LeFh I think would serve a better form of indirect support overall. On top of that it also gives the LeFh 18 to now 3 commanders and also makes 1 of the starting commanders have it which is good to have so newer players at least have 1 option.
Beyond that I think Relief infantry needs a different effect. I think this post explains a good change in a way better than I could (I think it's entirely possible to do this for relic infantry even though the topic is mainly going over rapid conscription). https://www.coh2.org/topic/107429/rapid-conscription-rework-proposal-with-implementation

German Mechanized
Spotting Scopes - Replaced with Combined Arms
Spotting Scopes just doesn’t really fit into this commander especially with the removal of the LeFh 18. Replacing it something like Combined Arms fits more thematically and fits better with the new abilities added in.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Spotting Scopes replaced with some low impact ability
Jaeger Armor still is too strong when the Elefant is combined with the high spotting power of Spotting Scopes. This getting changed would still leave Jaeger with a lot of power in team games but also now makes it not as auto included in line ups (at least the other elefant doctrine might have a chance of being picked over it).

Changes to Defensive Fortifications
Concrete Bunker changes
Cost to 270 Manpower (from 300)
Now has to be upgraded with 3 options that cost 60 munitions (only one can be chosen)
Defensive Upgrade - MG42 added and can call in Light Artillery Barrage or Smoke Shells
Infantry Support Upgrade - Can reinforce, heal infantry, and nearby infantry have a defensive bonus
Armor Support - 4 Mechanics can repair nearby vehicles and nearby vehicles have a fire rate bonus
Replace forward resupply station with changed Defensive Fortifications which would affect
Joint Operation
Festung Support
and Defensive Doctrine

So this change is a bit complicated but it essentially takes the elements of the new Resupply Station but ties it into an already existing but somewhat lackluster ability. The resupply station in it’s current iteration has 2 primary problems imo. The first issue is that ostheer is a faction that can already make forward HQs quite easily if they want to with cheap bunkers and/or halftracks. Then issue 2 is that unlike something like the Soviet Forward HQ this station relies on the existence of ambient buildings in good locations to be useful (which is seemingly the reason the repair bunker was also added for maps that lack buildings). This tries to address those issues by making it overall cheaper to get the effect you want without also needing to rely on the map. You could essentially see these new concrete bunkers as a super version of the basic bunker which I believe is the only real way you could make a Forward HQ style effect work for Ostheer.

Some more ideas I guess -

The direction that Joint operations is going seems really good, however I think the command panzer doesn’t quite fit the theme.
Joint Operations

In this case, “Command panzer” would be replaced with “Artillery observation Panzer”
As per the historical Panzerbeobachtungswagen (Tank observation vehicle), the tank would be the Long barrelled Panzer IV without a coaxial MG.
- Some abilities could be: Artillery flares, Mark Target, Hummel 150mm artillery barrage. Or maybe some others.


While not the worst commanders, Spearhead and Lighting War are not standouts either.

Spearhead

Replace Recon overflight with Jager command squad
This commander just doesn’t feel that impactful when picked, and by adding the Jager command squad it adds something that you can change your play style around.

Lightning War

Replace Tactical movement with SdKfz 234 Puma
Having a second commander with the Puma would allow for more different ways to play, and Lighting war was the commander that fit the Puma best thematically, so I thought I’d suggest adding it here.


IDK if these changes would make the commanders too good, but isn’t that what the beta is for? Maybe some more crazy ideas like this can be tried, and if they are OP then they can be removed.

Anyways, I hope this was interesting.

...

imo fragmentation bombing, Puma, Stuka loiter should not be available with Tiger.

These abilities are too impactful and should the "selling" point of commander with not access to heavy vehicles.

imo fragmentation bombing, Puma, Stuka loiter should not be available with Tiger.

These abilities are too impactful and should the "selling" point of commander with not access to heavy vehicles.

Why though? All other factions have commanders that have multiple “selling point” abilities.

For example, Soviets have Mechanized support tactics with Guards and ISU 152, or Shock army tactics with Shocks and T34/85s, or USF who have Heavy Cavalry company with Rangers and Pershing, or Tactical support company with M1919 LMGs and Caliope, or UKF, who have Vanguard regiment with Crocodile and Strafing support and Commandos, or Royal artillery regiment with Valentine and Sexton.

I think this is one of the reasons why Ostheer commanders feel so similar, because most of the abilities are weak and not worth choosing a specific commander over, with one impactful unit doled out to each commander

Why though? All other factions have commanders that have multiple “selling point” abilities.

For example, Soviets have Mechanized support tactics with Guards and ISU 152, or Shock army tactics with Shocks and T34/85s, or USF who have Heavy Cavalry company with Rangers and Pershing, or Tactical support company with M1919 LMGs and Caliope, or UKF, who have Vanguard regiment with Crocodile and Strafing support and Commandos, or Royal artillery regiment with Valentine and Sexton.

I think this is one of the reasons why Ostheer commanders feel so similar, because most of the abilities are weak and not worth choosing a specific commander over, with Anne impactful ability or unit sprinkled in each commander

Agreed.

It just feels like the Army is playing second fiddle to the OKW because of the amount and low quality of toys it has compared to it.

Stuff like a Forward Retreat Point, even doctrinally, repair station upgrade for the bunker, Puma, Jagdpanzer IV, King Tiger and whatever else they can transfer over would really help the faction out in my opinion.

Like I've said before, it's a solidly built faction but the amount of tools it has and thus options it provides is a bit lackluster when compared to other designs if you ask me.

Why though? ...

Fragmentation bombing can be used to take out static targets and ATG, it should not be available to a commander with a Tiger.

Loiter Stuka can be used to defend the Tiger from flaking move, it should not be available to Tiger.

Puma can be used as a cheap delay so one can stockpile fuel for the Tiger.

In order to make as many commander viable and increase the number of meta commander the total value of a commander abilities should be about the same.

If one could place a value on an ability from 0 to 10 the total values of commander should be 25.

For instance a Tiger has value of 8 out of 10 as commander ability the rest of the abilities should be 5 and bellow so that total value of abilities would be around 25.

imo fragmentation bombing, Puma, Stuka loiter should not be available with Tiger.

These abilities are too impactful and should the "selling" point of commander with not access to heavy vehicles.

True, the frag bombs on with the other example abilities would be a bit over the top. What do you think of Replacing it with incendiary bombs? Wound keep the anti team weapon use, but greatly reduce the outright wipe power.
However, I don't get where you are coming from with the Puma -> Tiger stall argument. OKW can do a Puma -> Tiger stall with Grand offensive, and you dont see that dominating in competitive play.
In fact, compared to Grand offensive, said lighting war is of comparable power, with G43s and Panzerfusiliers being similar, and both having tigers. Breakthrough's other abilities are also of similar power. Smoke recon (good), Panzer commanders (very good), and IR STG44 (neutral), (and stock puma); compared with reserve inf (ok), Stuka CAS (very good) and the option of a Puma (neutral).

Preemptively, because it is pretty obvious, I think that the changes from my original post would make Lighting war and Spearhead more desirable than other Ostheer commanders. But, the changed commaders are on the same level as the other factions commanders (see the lightning war - grand offensive comparison above). Shouldnt Ostheer's commanders be on the same level as other factions commanders to be balanced? Its elaborated why this is my line of thought further down in my other reply in this post -

Agreed.

It just feels like the Army is playing second fiddle to the OKW because of the amount and low quality of toys it has compared to it.

Stuff like a Forward Retreat Point, even doctrinally, repair station upgrade for the bunker, Puma, Jagdpanzer IV, King Tiger and whatever else they can transfer over would really help the faction out in my opinion.

Like I've said before, it's a solidly built faction but the amount of tools it has and thus options it provides is a bit lackluster when compared to other designs if you ask me.

Yeah.

Ostheer used to have an advantage with its stock units, none of them being locked behind side techs/tech paths, and them being better than their counterparts. And, they had T4 which was equivalent to the power of allied doctrines.

But over the years, the other factions have (rightfully) gotten easier access to team weapons and had their team weapons buffed to be usable, and been given better stock options to deal with Ost T4 alongside the nerfs to it.


If changes to commanders like I had were proposed back when Ost T4 was hard to counter without doctrines, and Allied team weapons were hard to get and weak, I would have agreed with Vipper’s sentiment that the doctrines were over the top.

But, now stock Ostheer is on the same footing as Allied stock, but their commanders remain below those of the allies as if Ostheer stock was still better than Allied stock.

I think it is time that Ostheer commanders were brought up to par with Allied commanders, just like how Allied stock has been brought up over the years to Ost levels.

True, the frag bombs on with the other example abilities would be a bit over the top. What do you think of Replacing it with incendiary bombs? Wound keep the anti team weapon use, but greatly reduce the outright wipe power.

Incendiary bombing would be a better choice for Tiger (although I am not sure the ability is correct spot, it seemed way weaker than incendiary artillery when tested. Both abilities should be weaker then current incendiary artillery because it kill ATG before they can reposition.

However, I don't get where you are coming from with the Puma -> Tiger stall argument. OKW can do a Puma -> Tiger stall with Grand offensive, and you dont see that dominating in competitive play.
In fact, compared to Grand offensive, said lighting war is of comparable power, with G43s and Panzerfusiliers being similar, and both having tigers. Breakthrough's other abilities are also of similar power. Smoke recon (good), Panzer commanders (very good), and IR STG44 (neutral), (and stock puma); compared with reserve inf (ok), Stuka CAS (very good) and the option of a Puma (neutral).
...

Direct comparison of OKW and Ostheer is not very helpful. Puma is a power for Ostheer and since Tiger does not requires the T4 building one can use the power spike to delay for the Tiger.

This can end up nerfing the Puma when it is not the Puma the problem but the combo. That was the part of problem with mobile defense commander. It had access to both a non tech AI tank and no tech AT vehicle and it ended up nerfing both units (C PzIV to oblivion) when it was not the unit themselves the problem but the combo.

Incendiary bombing would be a better choice for Tiger (although I am not sure the ability is correct spot, it seemed way weaker than incendiary artillery when tested. Both abilities should be weaker then current incendiary artillery because it kill ATG before they can reposition.

- yeah, good points -!

Direct comparison of OKW and Ostheer is not very helpful. Puma is a power for Ostheer and since Tiger does not requires the T4 building one can use the power spike to delay for the Tiger.

Why is it that a potential Ostheer Puma - tiger stall would be problematic when OKW Puma -Tiger stall is not. The overall tech cost to unlock tiger is very similar for both factions?

- yeah, good points -!


Why is it that a potential Ostheer Puma - tiger stall would be problematic when OKW Puma -Tiger stall is not. The overall tech cost to unlock tiger is very similar for both factions?

Difference is faction design and luck of healing. Ostheer is better at defending (better support weapons) and thus it easier to get away with delaying for Tiger. But we might be drifting a bit of topic.

Difference is faction design and luck of healing. Ostheer is better at defending (better support weapons) and thus it easier to get away with delaying for Tiger. But we might be drifting a bit of topic.

Not really off topic, I suggest commander change and we are now discussing wether said change is worthwile and balanced!

In any case, I just hope that some more experimental changes in the vein of the Spearhead and Lightning war changes that stared this discussion can be included in the beta and tried - and then discarded, if they are OP, or kept if they are good!

I really like the change to the StuG Ausf. E support gun. The smoke barrage really opens up play for it.

It may not become part of a top tier meta to use, but I really, really like it. A quick smoke barrage can hit an AT line supported by MG's and allow a group to punch a hole.