Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback

Not really related to current game balance, but I never understood why Combined Arms wasn't made a passive ability.

Not really related to current game balance, but I never understood why Combined Arms wasn't made a passive ability.

Check the history of aura units in coh2 to know why.
Things like that scale with numbers way too good, so you'd either have to leave it at bulletin level and have it being irrelevant or have it being meaningful, active timed effect.

Not really related to current game balance, but I never understood why Combined Arms wasn't made a passive ability.

Auras in general are AIDS from a balance position, there are a lot of variables that can affect them. It's better that it's an active ability, this makes it less likely to be exploitable.

Somebody I think suggested a OKW-like commander upgrade for the Pershing, why not also have a .50 cal one as well which is exclusive, unless both can be fitted on top of the turret like with the Churchill and you gain one through vet and the other you gotta upgrade.

Along with a self-repair ability it seems reasonable if it's still lacking even with the attempt to lower it's repair time.

Also maybe an ability like the Soviet tanks/British Raid Operations to capture points which you can get with vet as well since it's one feature that's gone without the tank crew being able to dismount?

Just throwing some ideas out there.

The whole AEF commander update is pointless.

Pershing: The problem with it is not the repair part, sure REs repair it slowly but it's still useless with it's low armour/HP and an overnerfed main gun without any pintles to deal steady dmg. If it had it's old AI gun, then yeah, it would be useful, but the current one won't wipe anything, and it's armour won't be used as a breakthrough and it's agility is not really that high to drive it around like a deja-vu drift session.

Rifle nade nerf: One of, if not the weakest upgrade. Only situationally good in 1v1s. And that's a hell of a situation as well.

E8 changes: Sure you can add the 5 more range and if penetration scales linearly, you'd have slightly better penetration on close to mid range but it's still a useless tank. Not any faster than a Panther, not armoured, mediocre AI, mediocre AT. Sure, 1v1 it will brawl with P4s but nobody builds only P4s throughout the game and you'll be forced to go 2x Jackson and abandon the E8s once Panthers and heavier duty armour starts rolling out.

Combined Arms nerf: Never used it, don't think it has any utility besides looking good on paper. At least not in 3v3s. Haven't seen anyone use it so it's a quasi change, only for the sake of having a bigger change log.

240mm barrage: Could be useful, who knows

Cav Rifles: 5 muni buff is memeworthy. Because you know, those 5 muni really gives you the upper edge since you'll be calling it non-stop now and we all know that brick by brick and you get a palace

Fired up: Meh, it's still in a commander that is downright useless and costs a full ability point so don't think anyone will pick Rifle company to make their rifles run

Heavy Cav smoke: This is a super useful thing. Even though it's inferior to other smoke drops, it still has it's uses. 10 muni change won't make much of a difference. Again, change to make the log longer

IR Barrage: Stupid nerf. If you spend so much muni just to displace an MG, it must mean you're playing 1v1. Don't know why nerf it. Recon company is weak as it is.

Calliope: What is the point of it with the nerf? It comes super late and only takes 1 more shot to kill than a stuka which comes much earlier and is much cheaper. Not to mention it has a much higher chance of wiping, whereas Calliope is more of an area denier with large scatter. Armour nerf is justified, but the HP one is not

Ranger change: Non sensical, didn't need any buffs

RE flame package: another buff that is not really needed. Only there to give a sense of a longer change log

.....


All in all, the balance team proves once again that they are biased. Nothing new

Sturmpanther: http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198046481660/standings

* Pretty much only plays Axis AT 4v4

JibberJabberJobber: http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198090318538/standings

*Wehrmacht player

Aerafield ( http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198062101687/standings )

*plays anything and from his post history you can see that he advocates for good axis/allies buffs/nerfs. Justified and unbiased (probably the only one in team)

Whorunbartertown: http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198155221839/standings

* Everything except brits

Rest of the balance team plays everything.
Now I would never want to balance this game as it's toxic to balance and I'm biased towards USF, but not biased enough to know that USF has it's toxic traits, especially in 1v1 where it is quite strong.

Still, if these [https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1616371200/4v4/wermacht] stats are true, why the hell would anyone do the changes they have done. It says it's top 200, and in top 200 the disparity between the win rates goes up to 10% (60/40) in team games, in favor of axis.

Even in 1v1 the brits lose hard. Everyone saying how IS are OP and everything but still having such a poor win rate and such a sh** pick rate.

In the end. Having a balance team that exclusively plays axis AT team games, paired with some of the loudest screechers on these forums, you get the balance patch we have now. Sure, some of the balance changes are welcome and needed, especially some of the OKW buffs and nerfs (flares) but the AEF is really nonsensical.

Some interesting conclusions you're drawing here but I think your reasoning is not sound.

At the end of the day, the unfortunate reality is the balance team balances for 1v1s and not 4v4s. Its very clear that Axis are struggling in 1v1s but are dominant in 4v4s. Its not hard to see why though. In team games there are less points to capture, the fronts are smaller so MGs are much more potent. Things like Soviet squad advantage with conscripts don't really matter as much in 4v4's but in 1v1s it puts them in a very dominant position when they can out-capture and out-trade their opponent.

This is why I advocate for a different balance patches for team games in my CoH3/DoW4 wish list here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/107980/my-coh3-dow4-wishlist/page/1#post_id857982

Plug aside though. The balance team does consider 4v4s when it comes to balance seeing as the last patch nerfed some very powerful 4v4 strategies such as the pack howie nerf you mentioned, ISU-152 commander nerf and some other commander changes.

Its very difficult to balance for both 1v1 and 4v4s. I do hope that the balance team notice that their changes is skewing the 4v4 win rate heavily in Axis favour while doing not much to improve their 1v1 win rates. We can help them balance by bringing up unfavourable match ups in a reasonable manner with evidence supporting the claim so it can be discussed, debated and eventually considered for change in an measured and paced way. This game will probably never be fully balanced but an evolving meta keeps the game fresh and I enjoy that.

Also as a side note: I do think other balance team members playing a single faction needs to start playing other factions or be removed from the balance team. Someone who is only focused on one faction does not belong on the balance team. A voice in the community is okay but not a voice on the balance team. They are not demonstrating that they are an unbiased person on the balance team and therefore does not belong on it.

Edit: I had Sturmpanther mixed up with another community member. My apologies to Sturmpanther.

For everyone who is upset at the Calliope armor nerf, this is why the armor needs to be nerfed:



20:15. If 1st shot penned maybe I could've kamikaze chased it down, but Calliope went nope.

Calliope needs armor nerf. Really upsetting when PIV-J cannot penetrate.

However HP nerf is unwarranted. Its 110 fuel, why should it die so quick? What 110 Fuel unit dies in 2 shots, tell me?

The shot at 20:15 wasn't a hit which is why it didn't 'pen'. It completely missed and hit the ground infront of the calliope. If it didn't pen, it would have deflected. It clearly did not deflect. Camera angle doesn't help seeing it either since its from the other side.

Some interesting conclusions you're drawing here but I think your reasoning is not sound.

At the end of the day, the unfortunate reality is the balance team balances for 1v1s and not 4v4s. Its very clear that Axis are struggling in 1v1s but are dominant in 4v4s. Its not hard to see why though. In team games there are less points to capture, the fronts are smaller so MGs are much more potent. Things like Soviet squad advantage with conscripts don't really matter as much in 4v4's but in 1v1s it puts them in a very dominant position when they can out-capture and out-trade their opponent.

This is why I advocate for a different balance patches for team games in my CoH3/DoW4 wish list here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/107980/my-coh3-dow4-wishlist/page/1#post_id857982

Plug aside though. The balance team does consider 4v4s when it comes to balance seeing as the last patch nerfed some very powerful 4v4 strategies such as the pack howie nerf you mentioned, ISU-152 commander nerf and some other commander changes.

Its very difficult to balance for both 1v1 and 4v4s. I do hope that the balance team notice that their changes is skewing the 4v4 win rate heavily in Axis favour while doing not much to improve their 1v1 win rates. We can help them balance by bringing up unfavourable match ups in a reasonable manner with evidence supporting the claim so it can be discussed, debated and eventually considered for change in an measured and paced way. This game will probably never be fully balanced but an evolving meta keeps the game fresh and I enjoy that.

Also as a side note: I do think Sturmpanther and other balance team members playing a single faction needs to start playing other factions or be removed from the balance team. Someone who is only focused on one faction does not belong on the balance team. A voice in the community is okay but not a voice on the balance team. They are not demonstrating that they are an unbiased person on the balance team and therefore does not belong on it. Sturmpanther occassionally has (toxic) troll bait forum posts which I do not think is acceptable for a balance team member.

Agreed. The 1v1 shows that Allies are in a small lead most of the time. At least according to this: https://coh2stats.com/stats/daily/1616112000/2v2/wermacht

However, notice that in 1v1, most od the time the difference is 51/49 which is within margin of of good taster (0.5% I'd say is the acceptable margin)
Going from 1v1 to 2v2 the winrate shifts hard to axis (55+%) which is not a neglible difference. Considering the number of games played, that shows a hefty lean. Pak howi got butchered. Played a couple of games now, two of which were ranked and in both scenarios, pak howis didnt manage to wipe a low hp squad with direct hits on about 6-9 occasions. In 1v1 that is not a problem, but in 3v3 that meant the big ass blob that the two paks + AAHT tried to stop were unstoppable (volks + pgrens + spios). Direct hits with little bleed. Again, I get how in 1vq getting wiped randomly by a shell can be toxic but now its nerfed to oblivion. Also, the changes I propose would not, IMHO, break anything in 1v1. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, who knows. All I know is the previous patch gutted USF even further in teamgames and this commender is eyeing for that ultimated USF teamgame death.

Agreed. The 1v1 shows that Allies are in a small lead most of the time. At least according to this: https://coh2stats.com/stats/daily/1616112000/2v2/wermacht

However, notice that in 1v1, most od the time the difference is 51/49 which is within margin of of good taster (0.5% I'd say is the acceptable margin)
Going from 1v1 to 2v2 the winrate shifts hard to axis (55+%) which is not a neglible difference. Considering the number of games played, that shows a hefty lean. Pak howi got butchered. Played a couple of games now, two of which were ranked and in both scenarios, pak howis didnt manage to wipe a low hp squad with direct hits on about 6-9 occasions. In 1v1 that is not a problem, but in 3v3 that meant the big ass blob that the two paks + AAHT tried to stop were unstoppable (volks + pgrens + spios). Direct hits with little bleed. Again, I get how in 1vq getting wiped randomly by a shell can be toxic but now its nerfed to oblivion. Also, the changes I propose would not, IMHO, break anything in 1v1. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, who knows. All I know is the previous patch gutted USF even further in teamgames and this commender is eyeing for that ultimated USF teamgame death.

I agree with you that all allied factions feel very weak right now in regards to team games. I regularly play 4v4s and I've been losing a lot more than winning because of the recent patch. I have recently made a post why I think this is happening.

You can find it here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/108115/4v4-win-rates-disparity/page/1#post_id860315

Please feel free to add your thoughts to it.

I'm top 50 2v2 player with USF currently and top30 soviets and I agree, there is no way for USF to counter axis infrantry in the late game unless you pick Calliope doctrine and it is funny to see it getting nerfed, while axis have stock rocket units to wipe allied infrantry.

The nerfs to pack howie and scotts made the situation way worse. I am sure the purpose of these units WERE to provide an alternative to missing stock rocket arty, but the wipe potential have been nerfed too hard, while axis gets to keep their stock rocket arty unit wipe potential and annihilating squads with their alpha strikes. The rifle nade nerfs made me question that if any from the balance team is even playing USF? I think I will quit playing USF after this patch hits live because it is way too big struggle lategame and just play soviets and ostheer since you have all the tools available in these factions by stock.

If anything, the jackson is the only single stock unit from everything you can build as USF that is keeping USF alive in lategame, but if you lose them, it is over, but jackson has been receiving nerfs in the previous patches too.

I'm top 50 2v2 player with USF currently and top30 soviets and I agree, there is no way for USF to counter axis infrantry in the late game unless you pick Calliope doctrine and it is funny to see it getting nerfed, while axis have stock rocket units to wipe allied infrantry.

The nerfs to pack howie and scotts made the situation way worse. I am sure the purpose of these units WERE to provide an alternative to missing stock rocket arty, but the wipe potential have been nerfed too hard, while axis gets to keep their stock rocket arty unit wipe potential and annihilating squads with their alpha strikes. The rifle nade nerfs made me question that if any from the balance team is even playing USF? I think I will quit playing USF after this patch hits live because it is way too big struggle lategame and just play soviets and ostheer since you have all the tools available in these factions by stock.

If anything, the jackson is the only single stock unit from everything you can build as USF that is keeping USF alive in lategame, but if you lose them, it is over, but jackson has been receiving nerfs in the previous patches too.

Agree. Honestly name one USF Stock unit that has the ability to alpha strike units? Pack howi and scott use to do this but now they've been neutered.

Don't Touch USF Mechanized company's Reserve armor Passive to 76mm sherman.

It will clearly harm diversity of commanders in 2v2 fight and clearly seeing the future that will just 'Kill' Mechanized company.

If mechanized company's early time nerf and late time buff happens. It will be a balanced. Sturdy fitting balanced commander.

I think Deleting Dozer blade upgrade to 75mm sherman Clearly just make another dead commander.
Don't try to 'kill' a commander.

And M10. M10 Wolverine must have some buffs.
I think its target size must be reduced to X17~X19.

No proper animations then. The gun / rocket rack support clips into the mantlet in that mod which looks pretty bad.

Alright so I tried it out yesterday and it doesn't seem to do what you say, I'm not sure if you're just played an old version or something but as you can see in my video it looks and works perfectly fine:



I get my first Calliope on the field at 8:30 and zoom in all the way in to view the entire model as well as try out the firing of the main gun, to which I lose it of course and it looks and works fine to me, I see no clipping issues or anything of the sort.

And to be honest I think it's somewhat balanced, you don't get the main gun being able to fire from the get go, you first need to upgrade it and then toggle it and until you toggle it back on you can't fire the barrage which makes sense.

Just needs some tweaks and it could be usable in the game just like with the 250 and it's MG42.

I'm top 50 2v2 player with USF currently and top30 soviets and I agree, there is no way for USF to counter axis infrantry in the late game unless you pick Calliope doctrine and it is funny to see it getting nerfed, while axis have stock rocket units to wipe allied infrantry.

The nerfs to pack howie and scotts made the situation way worse. I am sure the purpose of these units WERE to provide an alternative to missing stock rocket arty, but the wipe potential have been nerfed too hard, while axis gets to keep their stock rocket arty unit wipe potential and annihilating squads with their alpha strikes. The rifle nade nerfs made me question that if any from the balance team is even playing USF? I think I will quit playing USF after this patch hits live because it is way too big struggle lategame and just play soviets and ostheer since you have all the tools available in these factions by stock.

If anything, the jackson is the only single stock unit from everything you can build as USF that is keeping USF alive in lategame, but if you lose them, it is over, but jackson has been receiving nerfs in the previous patches too.

USF has the best scaling mainlane infantry in the whole game. 2 upgraded vet 3 Rifleman outperform 1 vet 5 Volks+1 vet5 Ober slighty. The infantry matchup isnt the problem. The Calliope nerf is justified and reasonable. Scott and Pack Howie are still decent, but require more micro in a micro heavy faction.

But i agree that stock rocket arty should be available for every faction. Its just too important. Dealing with anti tank gun/mg walls without arty is really annoying and way too punishing. Tbh if you nerf Calliope a little bit more you could just swap it with scott. Stock Calliope would make USF way better in teamgames and way less dependent on 1 or 2 commanders. UKF (and OKW with BGHQ, but atleast there you can backtech) lack rocket arty too and thats why they struggle in teamgames.

USF has the best scaling mainlane infantry in the whole game. 2 upgraded vet 3 Rifleman outperform 1 vet 5 Volks+1 vet5 Ober slighty. The infantry matchup isnt the problem. The Calliope nerf is justified and reasonable. Scott and Pack Howie are still decent, but require more micro in a micro heavy faction.

But i agree that stock rocket arty should be available for every faction. Its just too important. Dealing with anti tank gun/mg walls without arty is really annoying and way too punishing. Tbh if you nerf Calliope a little bit more you could just swap it with scott. Stock Calliope would make USF way better in teamgames and way less dependent on 1 or 2 commanders. UKF (and OKW with BGHQ, but atleast there you can backtech) lack rocket arty too and thats why they struggle in teamgames.

I don't think anyone ever complained about USF/UKF infantry. Besides, infantry engagements are not really common once T3/T4 starts rolling out as you'll have different indirects, tanks, arty, brummbar or whatnot to actually deal with infantry. Scott is definitely a reworked vehicle now. The autofire is all but useless since it's low range but the barrage is accurate to displace an MG or something. Not really something you pick in a teamgame but still, reworked to a new role. Not really worth fuel and pop but in 1v1 I can see it being useful.
Pak is downright useless until vet2 for the HE barrage. There was a game where my 2 pak howis survived late game to vet 3 with 3 kills among them. One pak howi killed one and the other killed two models.
About giving USF calliope stock... you would either have to severely nerf the offensive stats or make it a one shot tank and keep the good offensive stats, and reduce the price accordingly... or just rework the calliope to a slow AF arty which can survive a bit better and is in a doctrine, late and more expensive.

Pak is downright useless until vet2 for the HE barrage. There was a game where my 2 pak howis survived late game to vet 3 with 3 kills among them. One pak howi killed one and the other killed two models.
About giving USF calliope stock... you would either have to severely nerf the offensive stats or make it a one shot tank and keep the good offensive stats, and reduce the price accordingly... or just rework the calliope to a slow AF arty which can survive a bit better and is in a doctrine, late and more expensive.

I lost some squads against the Pak Howie yesterday. I thought they performed fine, but i havent used them since the nerf. So cum grano salis i guess.

About the Calliope: Increase the cost/popcap probably. The 320 Hp should remain and make the unit unique imo. With the armor nerf its easier to kill anyway. Dont know if the barrage needs some nerfs.

Any intention to change "Elite Vehicle Crews Upgrade" from Armor company?

I mean... why is this skill even exists in the first place?

Who uses vehicle crew as a battle infantry?

Waste of a skill slot. Really.

Any intention to change "Elite Vehicle Crews Upgrade" from Armor company?

I mean... why is this skill even exists in the first place?

Who uses vehicle crew as a battle infantry?

Waste of a skill slot. Really.

Upgrade increases vet rate and repair speed.
Weapons are just an indicator to tell they are upgraded.

The good question is why did the balance team nerfed units that were mostly used in teamgame if USF was already on the downside on team game eficiency.

The P47 is still the most expensive loitering abilities while being less powerful on its own than other similar abilities and face units that have vet1 blitz or doctrinal panzer tactician to escape but yet not a word from them, that's fair and balance. But when it comes to RAM+IL2 we're in months of discussion to nerf it and if possible nerf it to the ground.

They're now nerfing the calliope but still don't want to give USF late game more consistency.

The guy who nerfed the Calliope probably didn't took in account that USF is lacking accessible mines and both Axis factions already have stock brawler tank able to just run through USF defenses like knife in butter and with vet1 blitz, it also didn't come in his mind that the Calliope is stuck behind CP10.
Somewhat if we see complain that the Calliope is able to bounce shot that's mean Axis is already able to fend the USF player defenses to reach it while the contrary is not true, not with a sherman or a Jackson.
The best a USF player can do to take out a rocket arty is to sneak a sherman from the border of the map.

Its just sad that it didn't come in their mind that if a faction can't field anything more armored than a sherman and no mines that are going to stop heavier armored tanks then those other units should also have some resistance on their own.