Ostheer Commander Revamp 2021

Counter Battery on the LeFH needs looked at. I had no idea it tracked targets out of its cone and through the fog of war. It should not be able to track targets through the fog of war, it should fire at the enemy artillery's last known position; that alone renders static guns obsolete.

Buff StuG E

It is complete trash compared to the ostwind.
Ostwind deals more damage to infantry
Ostwind can flank AT guns, has a turret
Ostwind can kill light vehicles with direct fire

Maybe some more commanders can get Puma and Jager command squad? It’s only in one commander

Luftwaffe supply and CAS are very bad. But, The fuel/munitions drop can be OP on maps where Fuel is not in center. Plus, compare them to Jager inf. Doc. It has and AT and an AI offmap, which is all you need, plus many more cool abilities.

I know it was said, no new units. But maybe, we could get in these commanders a reskinned Ostruppen squad, called flaktruppen or Luftwaffe jager. Same stats as ostruppen to avoid balance complications, just a different name to fit theme.

Misc. commanders:


LefH commanders:


Elephant commanders (and Festung armour because I missed it)


Tiger commanders:


Currently Unique:


I’ve crossed out the abilities that are so bad they are rarely used with black, as if an ability is not used it is not contributing to the commander feeling unique in use

Some abilities are under utilized, like the Jager command squad and Puma. It would bad more variety to other commanders if they were in a second commander each

Also, relief infantry is terrible. Straight up replacing it with Ostruppen reserves would be better.
StuG E is also very bad.
Can’t fight light vehicles
Inconsistent damage, projectile travel time
Can’t flank AT guns (no turret)
And for only 25 more fuel you can get an Ostwind, which has much more consistent DPS, can fight light vehicles, can flank AT guns with turret, and even has AA as a bonus.

Misc. commanders:


LefH commanders:


Tiger commanders:


Currently Unique:



I’ve crossed out the abilities that are so bad they are rarely used with black, as if an ability is not used it is not contributing to the commander feeling unique in use

Mortar halftrack is not exactly bad. It performs admirably but its held back by being located in one really bad doctfine and one actually decent one. It would only require addition to third doctrine and maybe small cost decrease to 30 fuel as with usf counterpart.

Fuck Coh2 org

I took to long to type and when I went to post it told me to re log in

And it’s all gone


Fuck
I stayed put till 6:30 am typing that shit up

I want to die

Fuck Coh2 org

I took to long to type and when I went to post it told me to re log in

And it’s all gone


Fuck
I stayed put till 6:30 am typing that shit up

I want to die

You have my sympathy

I suggest you write long post in editor and copy them into forums...

Fuck Coh2 org

I took to long to type and when I went to post it told me to re log in

And it’s all gone


Fuck
I stayed put till 6:30 am typing that shit up

I want to die

Log out now.

Select "remember me" check box when logging in, this should prevent you from automatically getting logged out.

big post

You forgot Encirclement doctrine, boooo.

I disagree with several crossed out abilities.
-Mortar HT has napalm rounds, it can completely shut down british emplacements.
-Napalm bombing is ok too for the reason above.
-Stug E is about half the price of a brummbar and two of them perform roughly the same, but with more range. They get insane firerate at vet3.
-Opel blitz can work on fuel/muni points too, allowing the owning player to get earlier vehicles or use the two quite decent aircraft support abilities. Also, one of it's underused utilities is that it can allow cut off territories to continue to provide resources.
-Sector arty arrives slower than perimeter overwatch, but it has a greater firerate and more precise, it server it purpose most of the times in my experience.
-Riegel mine is completely fine, just happened to use it yesterday to shut down an armored flank. Seriously, the 251 halftrack is usually must have unit in team games anyway.
-Tactical advance, to my experience, is best used after mass retreats, to get back to the frontline much faster. Plus it affect team weapons too, I can see situations where an at gun would need that extra speed.
-Supply medical drop has its uses too (tho I agree it was made somewhat redundant lately).

The ones I agree with:
-Relief Infantry
-250 HT coming with infantry

You forgot Encirclement doctrine, boooo.

I disagree with several crossed out abilities.
-Mortar HT has napalm rounds, it can completely shut down british emplacements.

Does not actually work that good since it very inaccurate.

In addition the MHT can be killed mortar pit counter fire since it a big target and will taje serious damage from it.

-Napalm bombing is ok too for the reason above.

Again not really. The DOT damage of the ability is significantly weaker than its counter parts Soviet incendiary artillery (and Anti-Building Flame Mortar Support as far as I can remeber)

-Stug E is about half the price of a brummbar and two of them perform roughly the same, but with more range. They get insane firerate at vet3.

The unit is not bad but in most cases one is better of with ostwind since it is useless vs vehicles.

-Opel blitz can work on fuel/muni points too, allowing the owning player to get earlier vehicles or use the two quite decent aircraft support abilities. Also, one of it's underused utilities is that it can allow cut off territories to continue to provide resources.

In 1v1 its ok in team-games cashes are simply better.

-Sector arty arrives slower than perimeter overwatch, but it has a greater firerate and more precise, it server it purpose most of the times in my experience.

The ability is only good vs static targets since the tracking is very slow compared to over-watch. Imo the artillery shell should be replaced by mortars and the ability become cheaper and with lower CP.

-Riegel mine is completely fine, just happened to use it yesterday to shut down an armored flank. Seriously, the 251 halftrack is usually must have unit in team games anyway.

Not only it requires the HT that ready can plant mines (vet1) but it takes for ever to plant. M20 even get planting bonus.

Rigel is fine the commander not so much, it could be bundled with something else or the mine become available to other unit also.

{quote post="856932"]
-Tactical advance, to my experience, is best used after mass retreats, to get back to the frontline much faster. Plus it affect team weapons too, I can see situations where an at gun would need that extra speed.
-Supply medical drop has its uses too (tho I agree it was made somewhat redundant lately).

The ones I agree with:
-Relief Infantry
-250 HT coming with infantry

For lengthy posts (and I post a lot of those) make a quick ctrl+A&ctrl+C to select and copy all of your post just in case you get logged out.
If that happens, you can just paste it back.

I hope the mod team has looked hard at Elite doc. This commander really needs an off map ability. Please replace the Stunnade and/or Panzer tactician and give back an ability that can be used in team games.

Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMUnit G17

-Mortar HT has napalm rounds, it can completely shut down british emplacements.

Does not actually work that good since it very inaccurate.

In addition the MHT can be killed mortar pit counter fire since it a big target and will taje serious damage from it.

I disagree, I used it yesterday and even the day before, both cases it took only 2 barrages per emplacements. The same is true for Feuerstrum leig napalm, which imo is a bit more vulnerable.

Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMUnit G17

-Stug E is about half the price of a brummbar and two of them perform roughly the same, but with more range. They get insane firerate at vet3.

The unit is not bad but in most cases one is better of with ostwind since it is useless vs vehicles.

Stug E has heat round, it ain't much but honestly the ostwind ain't that good against late game vehicles either. Plus stug e still has longer range.

Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMUnit G17

-Sector arty arrives slower than perimeter overwatch, but it has a greater firerate and more precise, it server it purpose most of the times in my experience.

The ability is only good vs static targets since the tracking is very slow compared to over-watch. Imo the artillery shell should be replaced by mortars and the ability become cheaper and with lower CP.

Many arty abilities are only good vs static targets. It is also good enough to hit infantry trying to capture a territory. Plus the delay may lead to some other unit walking into it.

Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2021, 13:55 PMUnit G17

-Riegel mine is completely fine, just happened to use it yesterday to shut down an armored flank. Seriously, the 251 halftrack is usually must have unit in team games anyway.

Not only it requires the HT that ready can plant mines (vet1) but it takes for ever to plant. M20 even get planting bonus.

Rigel is fine the commander not so much, it could be bundled with something else or the mine become available to other unit also.

Doesn't seem to take longer to deploy than tellers with pios. The big deal about riegel is that it can completely stop a tank, pretty much guaranteeing a kill. An engine damage tank on the other hand may still retreat into safety.

Also, 'Riegel is fine, the commander not much'?? One of them is the elephant doctrine which is still strong, the other one is Storm doctrine with recon + stuka bomb with lefh on top, neither seem bad.

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Different topic, just a simple idea I throw in: how about Stormtroopers in elite doctrine gaining a JLI G43 instead of 3x panzergren G43s? It would be exclusive with Mp40 upgrade (so must retain their rifles before upgrading with G43). Compared to the OKW JLI these stormtroopers would still keep their moving camo, but wouldn't have first strike bonus.

I disagree, I used it yesterday and even the day before, both cases it took only 2 barrages per emplacements. The same is true for Feuerstrum leig napalm, which imo is a bit more vulnerable.

You mean you used 2 MHT using 2 incendiary barrages? that do sot sound that great.

One can kill emplacement while investing less fuel.

Stug E has heat round, it ain't much but honestly the ostwind ain't that good against late game vehicles either. Plus stug e still has longer range.

Heat round is not AT weapon is a simply temporary snare with 40 damage...The problem is not late vehicles but light tanks which are Ost weakness and stug E does very little against them.

Many arty abilities are only good vs static targets. It is also good enough to hit infantry trying to capture a territory. Plus the delay may lead to some other unit walking into it.

Point here is that overwatch has far better trucking for no apparent reason.

Doesn't seem to take longer to deploy than tellers with pios. The big deal about riegel is that it can completely stop a tank, pretty much guaranteeing a kill. An engine damage tank on the other hand may still retreat into safety.

Also, 'Riegel is fine, the commander not much'?? One of them is the elephant doctrine which is still strong, the other one is Storm doctrine with recon + stuka bomb with lefh on top, neither seem bad.

You missed my point. Riegiel mines is fine but not as commander ability as commander ability it is weak.

You mean you used 2 MHT using 2 incendiary barrages? that do sot sound that great.

One can kill emplacement while investing less fuel.

1 MHT with 2 consequtive barrages.

Heat round is not AT weapon is a simply temporary snare with 40 damage...The problem is not late vehicles but light tanks which are Ost weakness and stug E does very little against them.

In team game perspective light vehicles are generally less of a problem. Ostwind will continue to do AA while stug E can provide some minor support in late game tank combat too. Both has their merits.

You missed my point. Riegiel mines is fine but not as commander ability as commander ability it is weak.

I'm certain no one want to see a buff to the elephant doctrine, nor Storm doctrine.

1 MHT with 2 consequtive barrages.

That would probably only work vs very defensive opponents/inexperienced players and some luck.
The barrage is very slow needs more then 20 second to fire the 4 incendiary shots and has a cool-down of another 25 second and that is plenty of time to fire back on the mortar and force to stop the barrage.

When it was recently used against my garrisoned HMG it did not even force me to ungarrison.

In team game perspective light vehicles are generally less of a problem. Ostwind will continue to do AA while stug E can provide some minor support in late game tank combat too. Both has their merits.

If some one has tech to BP2 and has gained 5 CP his probably better off building something else.

I'm certain no one want to see a buff to the elephant doctrine, nor Storm doctrine.

We are talking about the ability and not the commanders. And it perfectly fine for weak abilities to exist to fill commander other very strong abilities.

Ost commanders are a complete cluster fuck

Also:
Does the name have to fit the abilities? Because many of the commanders have abilities that don’t match the theme of their name, and a bunch of the commanders have ability sets that fit a different commander’s name better

Is it a priority to keep commander abilities close to the original, or to make them fit theme, or is the priority just to buff the commanders with no regard for theme?

I don’t know what to focus on with my suggestion

Ability/unit buffs:
Artillery officer
Weak in combat, gets focused down super easily as he is limited to 1, and is useless when defending because he gets focused down even more
and artillery being locked behind vet make him quite weak.
Show Spoiler

StuG E
Gets destroyed by AT guns as can’t flank, and can’t fight light vehicles
Show Spoiler

Stun grenades
Isn’t worth an entire commander ability slot
Show Spoiler

Sector artillery - much less responsive than the British version, and more map dependant as it doesn’t cover all territories.
Show Spoiler

Field defences
Underwhelming compared to fortifications
Show Spoiler

Doctrine tweaks

Luftwaffe supply
Too reliant on munitions. Resource drop is cheesy on maps where fuel is not in the centre
Medical supplies are also pointless, as You have med bunkers
Show Spoiler

Close air support
Too reliant on munitions. Resource drop is cheesy on maps where fuel is not in the centre
Show Spoiler


Blitzkrieg
Mediocre abilities
Show Spoiler

Festung armour
Shares ! 3 ! Abilities with Fortified armour
Show Spoiler

Defensive and Osttruppen
These commanders are very similar, and now with Osttruppen nerfed their other abilities being underwhelming has made them weak.

Defensive
Overall weak
Sector artillery and StuG E are especially weak
Show Spoiler

Osttruppen
Field defences are nice but kinda weak
The Team weapon drop is also rather pointless as unlike USF Ost doesn’t have to choose between team weapons
Show Spoiler

German mechanized
Good commander, except the half track+infantry bundle sucks because it is a bundle, and lacks munitions sink
Show Spoiler

Festung support
Generally poor abilities
Mortar half track - good unit, but not worth it in this commander as you already have LefH and Stuka Smoke
Relief infantry - not worth killing you own troops for Osttruppen
Show Spoiler

Joint operations
Another meh commander
Show Spoiler

Storm
Only problem is that the regel AT mine is not worth an entire ability slot
Show Spoiler


Assault support
Has 2 anti infantry munition sinks, Opel blitz worse than a cache
Show Spoiler

Spearhead
Kinda bland
Show Spoiler

Elite troops
Stun grenades take a while slot, Lacks a munitions sink, shares g43s with lightning war. I think Veteran squad leaders would fit the theme super well and would give a second commander the ability, but it might just make German inf obsolete
Show Spoiler

Lightning war
Relief infantry - not worth killing you own troops for Osttruppen
Show Spoiler

Mechanized assault
Good and unique commander, except the half track+infantry bundle sucks because it is a bundle
Show Spoiler

Fortified armour
Are you really going to hull down you elephant
No munition sink
Show Spoiler




Please please discuss, I swear only really badly written posts get discussed, I tried to give reasoning for everything, to get some constructive stuff going, if you think my reasoning is wrong please discuss it and if my change ideas make any of the commanders OP please say so, I will update this post with the feedback when you do

...

Artillery officer is weaker than other officer but that has to do with 4 PM-40+1 pistol which makes him in late game. Imo giving me 1-2 ST44 replacing the pistol with vet would be enough to do the trick so that he can contribute more later in game when he can not actually be used aggressively.

Stug-E
Yes to both. Hollow shape charge could become the vet 1 ability a toggle munition since the current HEAT rounds are a Joke with 40 damage. Barrage could have lower range.


Stun grenades is not a great ability but imo there should be some abilities that are weak to be available in commander that have other powerful abilities. What I would like to see as change would be to be renamed as offensive grenades or concussion grenade and be design to be good only vs cover/garrison doing full or even extra damage vs these types of cover.

Sector artillery That ability is bad by design since expensive and very situational stockpiling munition to use this defensive ability will not turn a losing game in most cases.

I would rather have toned down become cheaper with lower CP aimed at single sector and not stop even if the sector is neutralized so that it help defend a sector instead of being the defense of the sector.

Assault Support Doctrine

General:
A decent commander but there with some issues but if one want to use Tigers there simply better Tiger commanders.


Suggestions:

Artillery Field Officer
This unit should simply not be in the commander.
The reason for that is that the until synthesizes only with wefers. But if someone goes for Tiger one has little reason to even built a T4 so the unit has less value.

Imo the best solution would be to split Ostheer officer in different categories there could be an infatry one/a armor one/luftwaffe one and so on, each with abilities better suited with the theme of the commander and the other units.

For instance one could change the commander to Panzer commander same stat but bodyguards now use tank crew model, scrap "Coordinated Barrage" and replace "Heavy Mortar Barrage" with flare or "survey battle field" an ability using binocular providing focus sight similar to SU-85 (keep Artillery Smoke Barrage, "Diversion") Concentrated Fire can stay or replace be supervise ability increasing repair speed o

At this point I would like to point out how good imo "diversion" (although it need a different name) is as an ability and similar abilities should be available to other smg units.

Another change I would suggest is that unit now get 1(-2) ST44 with vet replacing the pistol so that it can contribute some DPS later in game when it can no longer move close.

In addition diversions cost reduce with each vet level.

Cargo Truck
Not a very useful unit in many cases cashes are better investments.
One can change the unit and have "steal" resources from the enemy for limited, the "siphon" ability is already in game.
Or
can replace this ability with truck similar to the OKW have. Instead of aura healing the unit can lock in place and become a FRP (CP might need to be increased). Could offer healing for passengers and/or medic crates or it could be able to load and "transport" item like medic kits/uncrewed support weapons

Strafing Run
A rather average ability could see reduction in munition to 120 since the are better cheaper abilities available.

Fragmentation Bomb
A deadly ability and very powerful ability this ability should simply not be available with a Tiger.
possibly substitute with
Breakthrough from Encirclement Doctrine
or
Repair kit similar to Soviet where Ostheer infatry can repair vehicle
or
"Panzer grenadier tactics" a cheaper lower CP version of "combined arms" providing combat bonus to infatry fighting near vehicles.
or
Emergency Repairs

Tiger Tank
A unit that might use some changes. One could include armor/health bonus (even reduce base stat) to veterancy so.

Replace "Blitzkrieg Tactics" with another ability.
For instance:
"stabilized shot" able to activate only when stationary the unit can fire a single shots at range 55.
or
NahVW Grenade Launcher an toned down version of ST grenades with a damage of 20-40.

Tiger Ace rework

While not necessary balance wise, this would help the Tiger ace and the 2 commanders it is in be far more unique, preventing them from being so similar to the other tiger commanders.

Right now, the Tiger ace is very similar to the normal tiger. For a slightly higher price, you get Blitzkrieg by default, can survive one more shot, can use emergency repairs and at vet2 suppression and longer sight range through spearhead.
This rework differentiates the Tiger Ace from the Tiger by focusing the Tiger ace on anti tank, as compared to the generalist Tiger. I think this also fits the name better, as Tiger aces were aces for the number of tanks they destroyed.

Rework:
Main gun AOE removed
Range increased to 50
“Blitzkrieg tactics” removed
“Spearhead” replaced with “overwatch”
Overwatch:
Requires veterancy 1
Locks turret to 90* frontal arc
Disables firing on the move
Decrease max speed and acceleration
Increases range 60.

This allows the Tiger ace to frontally engage tank destroyers, but makes it extremely vulnerable to flanking attacks, as if any tank gets beside it the fact that the turret is locked to the frontal arc and it cannot fire while turning to face means it cannot retaliate.

Emergency repairs changed to require veterancy 2

I have no idea if this idea is balanced in this form. I’m trying to show a general concept, and if the idea is liked it would have to be tested and tuned. I am not suggesting this as the exact stats, so please don’t ignore the idea for that.