OKW Commander Revamp 2021

If Fallschirmjager become available to ostheer are parachutist they should be model after USF paras and be 5 or 6 entities.

Sounds like a lot of needless extra work, and it doesn't fit the faction theme of small model sizes in each squad. Granted, Falls in their current form would fit very well into the needs of Ostheer.

Also, wasn't the whole point of giving Falls paradrop to make them NOT be infiltration units?

Sounds like a lot of needless extra work, and it doesn't fit the faction theme of small model sizes in each squad. Granted, Falls in their current form would fit very well into the needs of Ostheer.

Ostruppen area already 6 men and fit the faction theme.

Generally speaking Paras are vulnerable during landing (can die both from collision and enemy fire) and that it is a better design to have more than 4 entities. One can even find videos of fallj no surviving the drop.

Also, wasn't the whole point of giving Falls paradrop to make them NOT be infiltration units?

The initial issue they wanted to fix was the wipe potential of enemy squad at spawn (which has been partially fixed already with the 2 K98. Why paradrop solution was chosen is unclear in the notes but probably has more to do with changes in "Airborne Assault" and less to do with removing the infiltration part.

In the old implementation the commander actually had the access to both infiltration and parachute Falls which in my opinion was a better design.

"Airborne Assault" was a bad ability and the correct to fix it but there where solution better solution imo.

well if that doesn't raise any red flags due to swapping units from one faction to another

Literally first bullet point on hints for commander revamp patch strictly mentions no to unit swapping between factions.

Literally first bullet point on hints for commander revamp patch strictly mentions no to unit swapping between factions.

yeah, hence the preface. but thanks for pointing it out again once more, i guess.

yeah, hence the preface. but thanks for pointing it out again once more, i guess.

Main point here that four entities is low count for parachutist and should be increased. One could even give luft 2 different types of Falls an infatry(or infiltration) version and airdropped one

Main point here that four entities is low count for parachutist and should be increased. One could even give luft 2 different types of Falls an infatry(or infiltration) version and airdropped one

Why is it low count? For Axis squads, 4 men is fairly standard. If they want more squad members they need to lose a lot of DPS, which would basically force that we'd get a completely new unit. And that is not doable according to Sanders.

Why is it low count? For Axis squads, 4 men is fairly standard.

VG have 5 entities so not that standard.

Riflemen are also 5 entities yet the paras is the only USF unit with 6 entities. The reason behind that is that aggressive airdrops are hazardous. Entities might hit world object and die or can be shot down before they land die.

If paras are not used aggressively the hole mechanism become less important.

If they want more squad members they need to lose a lot of DPS, which would basically force that we'd get a completely new unit. And that is not doable according to Sanders.

That is correct. If they get more entities they get less DPS, but that is a good thing.

More entities would create more differences with obers.

Point here is that USF paras a well designed unit that work, and falls should use the same design.

I personally would not that a unit.

Main point here that four entities is low count for parachutist and should be increased. One could even give luft 2 different types of Falls an infatry(or infiltration) version and airdropped one

not sure what this has to do with the possibility of porting units from OKW over to Ostheer, but for what it's worth i've never had any problems parachuting my 4-men falls into the battlefield, nor do i think a higher model count would improve anything with respect to deployment. if you apply common sense when using any of the airdrop abilities, i.e. stay away from hedges, trees and especially enemy unit concentrations, they'll mostly land just fine in my experience. in fact, i'd wager a larger squad size might even increase the odds of one or two models ending up entangled in a tree since USF paras, for example, appear to be spread out over a much larger area upon landing.

The reason behind that is that aggressive airdrops are hazardous. Entities might hit world object and die or can be shot down before they land die

You don't have to drop them on top of the enemy. There are usually enough places to drop them safely, even behind enemy lines. And as opposed to Paratroopers, they can hide after their drop because of their camo.

Falls are already compensated for having 4 men by having a very tight drop pattern compared to Paratroopers. You can drop them anywhere that's not right next to a building or a big hedge.

VG have 5 entities so not that standard.

Riflemen are also 5 entities yet the paras is the only USF unit with 6 entities. The reason behind that is that aggressive airdrops are hazardous. Entities might hit world object and die or can be shot down before they land die.

If paras are not used aggressively the hole mechanism become less important.

That is factually incorrect and a wrong misconception of the game's mechanics. The reason is simple, and I'll keep it short for you: There are other units (example: Falls) that follow the same idea of an aggressive airdrop or infiltration as Paratroopers. Falls are factually even more aggressive due to their innate abilities and their ability to drop as good as anywhere safely due to their fall pattern but they have fewer models. Meanwhile, you have to learn and understand where to use the Paras for them to drop and land safely. It can be behind enemy lines but there are not that many non-obvious spots for them to land on most maps (easier with pathfinders tho). Falls are definitely the better due to their even more aggressive drops, less chance to lose a model on landing (landing pattern), quicker drops (again less models), and has endless great spots on every map for good play. There is no hole mechanic, I assume you had a typo and you mean "whole".

Edit: I spotted that sander, who knows the game in and out, is of the same opinion.

You don't have to drop them on top of the enemy. There are usually enough places to drop them safely, even behind enemy lines. And as opposed to Paratroopers, they can hide after their drop because of their camo.

Falls are already compensated for having 4 men by having a very tight drop pattern compared to Paratroopers. You can drop them anywhere that's not right next to a building or a big hedge.

Even if they do not hit object with lower counter they easier to be killed by units during drop, there was even video somewhere with fall dying from fire before even hitting the ground.

Even if everything goes perfectly they have to retreat earlier behind enemy lines and are at higher risk.

In addition lower counter model make the "Airborne Assault" reinforcement part less effective for the same reasons.

The only other parachutist unit in the game are USF paras and they start with 6 entities. It is a successful design. I see no reason to move away from recipe that works.

Having 4 entities was necessary when they started with 4 FG-42 (using a different profile) but serves no real purpose now and has no real benefits.

VG have 5 entities so not that standard.

Riflemen are also 5 entities yet the paras is the only USF unit with 6 entities. The reason behind that is that aggressive airdrops are hazardous. Entities might hit world object and die or can be shot down before they land die.

If paras are not used aggressively the hole mechanism become less important.


That is correct. If they get more entities they get less DPS, but that is a good thing.

More entities would create more differences with obers.

Point here is that USF paras a well designed unit that work, and falls should use the same design.

I personally would not that a unit.

i think the paradrop mechanic is fairly pointless at this point other than spawning them somewhat closer to the front line. Both units must upgrade anyway to reach their full potential, which takes some time and can't be done behind the front line (not even sure if it is possible at all, but especially for paratroopers it is not feasible anyway due to lack of camo).

So what would your design of Falls/airborne assault commander then look like?
The only design I can currently see is to make Falls a short range camo squad similar to Stormtroopers. OKW already has short-mid range covered by Volks and mid-long by Obers. All other camo squads bring something different to the table, like Soviets getting fragile 4 men Partisans and OST and UKF getting a short range specialist that specialize in traps/demolition. OKW already has most of this covered.

i think the paradrop mechanic is fairly pointless at this point other than spawning them somewhat closer to the front line. Both units must upgrade anyway to reach their full potential, which takes some time and can't be done behind the front line (not even sure if it is possible at all, but especially for paratroopers it is not feasible anyway due to lack of camo).

That is a bit inaccurate. Both Paras and Falls do not need to be in friendly territory to upgrade with weapons.

USF paras where designed as paratroopers and there are mechanics for increasing the success of an aggressive jump.

That includes sending pathfinder in the area to set up a beacon that serves both as means of safe landing from "collision" casualties and from enemy fire since it provides mini map info for potential enemies. In addition it allows Paras to reinforce that combined with passive healing available them via meta allows them more staying power.

So what would your design of Falls/airborne assault commander then look like?
The only design I can currently see is to make Falls a short range camo squad similar to Stormtroopers. OKW already has short-mid range covered by Volks and mid-long by Obers. All other camo squads bring something different to the table, like Soviets getting fragile 4 men Partisans and OST and UKF getting a short range specialist that specialize in traps/demolition. OKW already has most of this covered.

There are plenty of option imo and boils down to choice:

One could go for the infiltration design and Airbourne Guards design have the start with k98 with the ability to upgrade to either SMG or LMG (with limited number FG42 to probably 2). I would rather have the again start as at least 5 men and camo could be tied to the SMG upgrade.

One could go for the Parachute design again increasing the squad size at least 5 allowing the unit it self to build some sort of beacon/rally point, probably removed first strike bonus 9or ever camo) and maybe adding mines like support paras.

There also option for changes to FG-42 since it was a very versatile weapon ahead of its time and even comes with scopes.

For instance one could add 2 firing option one semi auto using scope suitable for long range fight and one semi auto closer to BAR making Falls a good unit to be used aggressively.

As for the "airborne assault" (AA) ability the ability could also see changes.

For instance one could move reinforcement for Falls part to valiant assault since AA an expensive ability and buffing it since it not much better than typhoon "strafing support" and its probably weaker than "sector assault" that is even available earlier at CP 10.
Or
one could change targeting into targeting a sector use the "hold the line" mechanism where planes do not loiter but attack units within sector.
or
one could even roll back to the original design of commander where one had access to both infiltration falls and airdropped falls with some changes.

The ability now is move to CP 3 and has 2 clicks first click send a scouting plane in the area and then the player can click again to drop the falls. Once T4 is unlock a strafing AI Stuka can be added.

That is just to mention some options, once one decided the direction the want to go the specifics is the easy part.

Concerning Special Operations, flares could be moved to the command panther and their stats nerfed while in their slot I would like to see the Sturm Offizier.


Like the Commissar, these officer units could be included in one or two more doctrines.

EDIT: In addition, the Feuersturm doctrine Opel Blitz should have a short set-up/set-down time like its OST counterpart. It feels really cheap when it follows and supports a blob.

That is a bit inaccurate. Both Paras and Falls do not need to be in friendly territory to upgrade with weapons.

That's why I focused on feasibility. Especially paras can't wait the half minute or so upgrade time that it takes them to get LMGs or Thompsons while being fully visible in enemy territory.

USF paras where designed as paratroopers and there are mechanics for increasing the success of an aggressive jump.

That includes sending pathfinder in the area to set up a beacon that serves both as means of safe landing from "collision" casualties and from enemy fire since it provides mini map info for potential enemies. In addition it allows Paras to reinforce that combined with passive healing available them via meta allows them more staying power.

The beacons are a nice idea, but they don't really work the way you describe. You're usually not able to set them up behind enemy lines and then later reinforce from that point. It just takes too much time and effort for little gain. Best they can do is to provide some recon when placed behind shot thick hedges and a forward reinforcement point for paratroopers (best I can achieve is slightly behind my own frontline). Otherwise they just work as long range terminators, similar to Obersoldaten.

-snip for brevity-

The chances of a model dying is very slim when you place them correctly, especially with the small landing area that Sanders already pointed out. I don't see why they need to have 5 men because of this.

There are a lot of suggestion of yours, due to time shortage I won't comment on detail on them since they partially have quite far reaching implications.
Overall, the commander does not need a buff. I would not buff Valiant Assault in any way since it is in line or even one of the better versions of infantry DPS boosters. Therefore I'd also not buff the airborne assault ability. I'd rather give it a rebalance to 150-180 mun and nerf accordingly. This way the Fall reinforcement becomes more useful as well.

Regarding Falls, OKW does not have many niches that they would fit in. Currently they have a big overlap with Obersoldaten which is not great either. 5 men could work if they probably lose 2 FG42s and get a slight reinforcement cost buff. But what will be their niche? The only thing OKW needs is an infiltration unit. There are already JLI, so Falls don't need really to provide sniping capabililty or recon (which is already available in the commander with the smoke recon). Regarding damage, OKW has all ranges covered except for a super short range burster like Shocks or Commandos. Potentially they could also focus more on diversion and swap the booby trap ability from Obersoldaten. This would probably be a good change overall since Obers come already loaded with two grenades and a vet suppression ability. Technically, I could even imagine them to have a more "dig in" type of design, allowing them to build trenches (possible in non-friendly territory only).

Falls in their current form, Stuka smoke drop + recon, Valiant Assault, Airborne Assault. Fallschirmjager camo and heavy fortifications are the only abilities that make the doctrine "defensive".

its more of a well rounded doctrine with little bit of everything. Buffs are certainly more oriented towards the aggressive parts yes but repair ability would give bit more support oriented function. Also it would help leviating the lack of repair units.

...
The beacons are a nice idea, but they don't really work the way you describe. ...

That is a problem of the "rush to last tier" mentality but the design is there and is good.

The chances of a model dying is very slim when you place them correctly, especially with the small landing area that Sanders already pointed out. I don't see why they need to have 5 men because of this.
....
Regarding Falls, OKW does not have many niches that they would fit in. Currently they have a big overlap with Obersoldaten which is not great either. 5 men could work if they probably lose 2 FG42s and get a slight reinforcement cost buff. But what will be their niche? The only thing OKW needs is an infiltration unit. There are already JLI, so Falls don't need really to provide sniping capabililty or recon (which is already available in the commander with the smoke recon). Regarding damage, OKW has all ranges covered except for a super short range burster like Shocks or Commandos. Potentially they could also focus more on diversion and swap the booby trap ability from Obersoldaten. This would probably be a good change overall since Obers come already loaded with two grenades and a vet suppression ability. Technically, I could even imagine them to have a more "dig in" type of design, allowing them to build trenches (possible in non-friendly territory only).

What OKW luck is a decent assault squad that is mid oriented and durable VG simply do not cut it and ST44 obers are do not fit army composition in sufficient number. Fall can easily fill that role with 5 entities.

I agree that Ober has little or no reason to have booby traps.

JLI are not an infiltration unit since the enter the field normally and not spawn form ambient buildings are closer to pathfinder.

That is a problem of the "rush to last tier" mentality but the design is there and is good.

Then perhaps you should not have whined for nerfs of every single light vehicle in existence, then we would have a mid game, because you wouldn't be able to just ignore mid game for posing too little threat to care. For years you were directly advocating for the game to end in this state by calling nerfs to everything pre med tank phase and now you are complaining about it? This is what you and others always wanted, where is the problem?

What OKW luck is a decent assault squad that is mid oriented and durable VG simply do not cut it and ST44 obers are do not fit army composition in sufficient number. Fall can easily fill that role with 5 entities.

UKF completely voids that argument for stock army and for doctrinal, MP40 volks exist already.
If every single role was always needed, as you claim, DLC factions wouldn't be designed lacking these roles by default.

JLI are not an infiltration unit since the enter the field normally and not spawn form ambient buildings are closer to pathfinder.

He said:

There are already JLI, so Falls don't need really to provide sniping capabililty or recon

You are the first one to call them infiltration unit, he didn't even indirectly.
Stop projecting your thoughts onto others, its insulting to other posters and shows your utter disregard for their arguments.

That is a problem of the "rush to last tier" mentality but the design is there and is good.

No, this is an issue of beacon design. They are decently visible to the enemy and get destroyed quickly. It is just not worth the effort of trying to sneak Pathfinders behind the line, set up a beacon in a somewhat disguised spot only to later drop paras (probably hide them without camo until they upgrade) and reinforce there. Chances are that the beacon is already destroyed or that it will be once the enemy sees they are reinforcing. Assuming you can soft retreat in the first place.

The game is just too quickly paced in general for these types of play and in larger modes too densely "populated" with units. You're just better of with supporting other units and capping points instead of wasting 1-2 minutes of this unit not doing combat or other jobs. They are just too expensive for that.

What OKW luck is a decent assault squad that is mid oriented and durable VG simply do not cut it and ST44 obers are do not fit army composition in sufficient number. Fall can easily fill that role with 5 entities.

I agree that Ober has little or no reason to have booby traps.

JLI are not an infiltration unit since the enter the field normally and not spawn form ambient buildings are closer to pathfinder.

Volks are mid to short range oriented. And unless you want to make Falls a replacement for main line infantry, you won't be able to fit more of them into your build than you could fit Obersoldaten (which is usually 1-2 depending on initial build and late game wipes).

The infiltration was not meant as the spawn mechanic, but as the role on the battlefield since I was talking about unit roles the whole time. I meant it as their role in recon and trying to slip through the lines.

You are the first one to call them infiltration unit, he didn't even indirectly.
Stop projecting your thoughts onto others, its insulting to other posters and shows your utter disregard for their arguments.

The way I phrased it makes it an understandable conclusion. I actually even meant it as an infiltration unit, however not in the mechanical definition that Vipper uses.

No, this is an issue of beacon design. They are decently visible to the enemy and get destroyed quickly. It is just not worth the effort of trying to sneak Pathfinders behind the line, set up a beacon in a somewhat disguised spot only to later drop paras (probably hide them without camo until they upgrade) and reinforce there. Chances are that the beacon is already destroyed or that it will be once the enemy sees they are reinforcing. Assuming you can soft retreat in the first place.

The game is just too quickly paced in general for these types of play and in larger modes too densely "populated" with units. You're just better of with supporting other units and capping points instead of wasting 1-2 minutes of this unit not doing combat or other jobs. They are just too expensive for that.

I agree and is what meant, "rushing last tier" mentality have increased the paced and there little reason to bother using beacons as initially designed.

Generally speaking the parachutist offer little other by a nice gimmick and saving some time in entering the field.

Volks are mid to short range oriented. And unless you want to make Falls a replacement for main line infantry, you won't be able to fit more of them into your build than you could fit Obersoldaten (which is usually 1-2 depending on initial build and late game wipes).

VG K98 and ST44 are more mid to far oriented and do not really stand a change vs BAR riflemen.

Falls arrive earlier than obers and one can fit more than 1-2. One can even spam kubels to fit more falls.

Imo a design of fall that made similar to riflemen is use is viable and fill a hole in OKW units.

The infiltration was not meant as the spawn mechanic, but as the role on the battlefield since I was talking about unit roles the whole time. I meant it as their role in recon and trying to slip through the lines.

Fair enough and it makes some sense but the game does seem to prefer therm infiltration for unit that can actually spawn from ambient building. (see for instance infiltration commandos)

Maybe camo/recon unit would a term better describing JLI/Pathfinders.