New penal ptrs feels a bit much
5 Mar 2021, 16:53 PM
#41
Posts: 2779
It's 2015 again.
5 Mar 2021, 16:56 PM
#42
Posts: 178
Man, some prime Vipper posting in here. "Adding 50% more AT damage didn't significantly change Penals, PTRS Penals were always good." Absolutely hilarious, how does anyone take that seriously and keep responding. Dude is delusional in his Axis bias.
That being said, Penals feel so much better now, especially vs OKW since it gives you easy access to the M3. You still don't want to upgrade PTRS unless you absolutely have too because you're neutering your mainline infantry squad into some bastardization of an AT squad. At most you're going to upgrade 1 Penal into a PTRS is you absolutely need AT but any more than that and you just straight up can't hold ground vs infantry anymore.
That being said, Penals feel so much better now, especially vs OKW since it gives you easy access to the M3. You still don't want to upgrade PTRS unless you absolutely have too because you're neutering your mainline infantry squad into some bastardization of an AT squad. At most you're going to upgrade 1 Penal into a PTRS is you absolutely need AT but any more than that and you just straight up can't hold ground vs infantry anymore.
5 Mar 2021, 16:56 PM
#43
Posts: 1563
I do not really make difference which versions of PTRS the post was about about, it only matter that the post was about the weapon and not a squad.
No. As the one who started the post the version does matter. The PTRS used by penals are different from the one both Guard and Conscripts use in game and that has received changes.
5 Mar 2021, 16:58 PM
#44
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Very good point. Do you think a change to make Infantry AT unable to fire from a moving vehicle (Or fire from a vehicle at all, perhaps, as the former is also cheesable) would be a good idea? It would leave room to improve PTRS performance in other areas without them being unbearably cheesy.
It would also nerf the Pgren Battle Bus and similar tactics, if you applied a change like that broadly, but maybe that's also a good thing.
why would you ever want to remove one of the most fun mechanics from the game?
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
5 Mar 2021, 17:02 PM
#45
Posts: 1594
It's 2015 again.
God, I hope this isnt happening again.
5 Mar 2021, 17:02 PM
#46
Posts: 2779
God, I hope this isnt happening again.
Try it yourself, it is exactly like this again.
5 Mar 2021, 17:04 PM
#47
Posts: 1594
Try it yourself, it is exactly like this again.
They accidentally reintroduced being able to kill crewed weapons while the crew are still alive?
5 Mar 2021, 17:05 PM
#48
Posts: 2779
They accidentally reintroduced being able to kill crewed weapons while the crew are still alive?
No idea then. PTRS screw crewed weapon but no tomorrow, is the truth.
5 Mar 2021, 17:06 PM
#49
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Man, some prime Vipper posting in here. "Adding 50% more AT damage didn't significantly change Penals, PTRS Penals were always good." Absolutely hilarious, how does anyone take that seriously and keep responding. Dude is delusional in his Axis bias....
Allow me to explain something to you when you use quotations marks it meams that what you are posting exactly what someone else has posted.
I have never posted this:
"Adding 50% more AT damage didn't significantly change Penals, PTRS Penals were always good."
or anything even remotely close to its meaning, so I would suggested you delete that part of your post because it simply a lie.
No. As the one who started the post the version does matter. The PTRS used by penals are different from the one both Guard and Conscripts use in game and that has received changes.
It does not matter in context of the debate with Pip but it does matter in thread. I did not bring Guards into to this debate Pip did.
My post included the changes to all AT rifle versions and not the changes to Penals as a squad.
5 Mar 2021, 17:12 PM
#50
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Very good point. Do you think a change to make Infantry AT unable to fire from a moving vehicle (Or fire from a vehicle at all, perhaps, as the former is also cheesable) would be a good idea? It would leave room to improve PTRS performance in other areas without them being unbearably cheesy.
It would also nerf the Pgren Battle Bus and similar tactics, if you applied a change like that broadly, but maybe that's also a good thing.
This is fair. I think the only ways around this would either be to give PTRS increased utility (Through giving them interesting abilities, like a tread shot or some other sort of "aimed shot/micro snare" ability), or to bite the proverbial bullet and turn them into a reskinned zook/shreck by removing their infinite accuracy advantage, and increasing both their pen/damage while reducing their RoF. Either of these would make them more attractive lategame, i imagine.
I mean, unless people are happy with the current state of affairs... though are they really?
I don't think removing the cheese is good, but i wouldn't mind if another modifier is added to units firing from vehicles (they currently have minus 50% acc) in the form of cooldown. And then further buffs, specially utility wise for those lights vehicles which are the most affected been added. But i don't think this is a priority at all as they are not meta problems on the foreseable future.
I'm disappointed that on this last patch, they didn't went full head on making Penals PTRS a full AT squad, nerfing their AI even more when upgraded and adjusting their satchel/snare availability.
I think by giving Soviets an alternative non doctrinal way to deal with heavy TDs, any adjustments to cheese ram + offmaps would been more than fine.
They accidentally reintroduced being able to kill crewed weapons while the crew are still alive?
Check when the video was uploaded. Porygon just want to complain as this has already been fixed (years ago).
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
5 Mar 2021, 17:27 PM
#51
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Test or calculate their TTK vs medium tanks.
This ignores the advantage of higher alpha strike damage vs. lower damage higher RoF, which matters quite a lot for AT infantry. When your a squad that fights vehicles you usually can't stand around very long
Easier for Zooks and schrecks to actually secure kills in a real game scenario. Ptrs penals are fine
5 Mar 2021, 17:32 PM
#52
Posts: 1594
My post included the changes to all AT rifle versions and not the changes to Penals as a squad.
This is the error you made. The thread is about Penals and their performance using PTRS, not about a singular PTRS rifle in a vacuum. The people you originally quoted were talking about the former, not the latter.
We know what changes were made to the rifle. They aren't particularly relevant in this discussion.
5 Mar 2021, 17:43 PM
#53
Posts: 1954
It's 2015 again.
So 1 mg is supposed to beat 5 squads? Okay.
5 Mar 2021, 17:55 PM
#54
Posts: 1594
I don't think removing the cheese is good, but i wouldn't mind if another modifier is added to units firing from vehicles (they currently have minus 50% acc) in the form of cooldown. And then further buffs, specially utility wise for those lights vehicles which are the most affected been added. But i don't think this is a priority at all as they are not meta problems on the foreseable future.
I'm disappointed that on this last patch, they didn't went full head on making Penals PTRS a full AT squad, nerfing their AI even more when upgraded and adjusting their satchel/snare availability.
I think by giving Soviets an alternative non doctrinal way to deal with heavy TDs, any adjustments to cheese ram + offmaps would been more than fine.
I guess that's a personal thing, I'm really not a fan of cheese and massive RNG, so really any reduction/removal of that is fine by me.
I'd agree that Penals turning into a "real" AT squad would have been nice... and would be a VERY good excuse to just outright remove ram and replace it with a more universal, and less disgustingly cheesy ability. As i say, it doesnt even necessarily need to be them providing tonnes of damage on their own. Button is a good example of an ability that lets an unit (Guards, obviously) provide good utility versus even heavy vehicles. I'm not suggesting to give Penals button, but they could well get some sort of utility ability, if the Balance team doesn't want to just give them Zooks.
Check when the video was uploaded. Porygon just want to complain as this has already been fixed (years ago).
I saw that it was from 2015, i just wasnt sure if it was supposed to demonstrate that something old had returned.
5 Mar 2021, 20:30 PM
#55
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
So 1 mg is supposed to beat 5 squads? Okay.
So 5 squads, out of cover A moving MG in green cover suppose to beat it? Mkay. You must be enjoying playing as brits
5 Mar 2021, 20:34 PM
#56
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I guess i'll wait for your opinion when(if) Penals get more prevalent.
I'll just ask to make sure, you do know that conscripts also have PTRS and theirs always came with 3 rifles and dealt same damage to vehicles as penals and against vehicles, it never was any issue?
Only difference is, penals are much less cost efficient, expensive and stock.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
5 Mar 2021, 22:41 PM
#57
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
So 5 squads, out of cover A moving MG in green cover suppose to beat it? Mkay. You must be enjoying playing as brits
That was only possible because back then, you could target the support weapon rather than the crew, and if the weapon was destroyed, it was immediately destroyed.
Con PTRS was not a great weapon against infantry, but the size of the support weapons meant that they would never miss, making any of the debuffs from been suppressed almost meaningless.
Suppression cuts DPS down to 15%/20% if the squad doesn't need to reload. 5 Squads of anything are more than likely to be able to destroy frontally any MG if they can volley fire the gunner. More so if you enjoy a little bit of light cover and the squad is vetted. Don't forget MGs don't get any defensive RA and the crew already has 1.25 size.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
5 Mar 2021, 23:02 PM
#58
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
That was only possible because back then, you could target the support weapon rather than the crew, and if the weapon was destroyed, it was immediately destroyed.
Con PTRS was not a great weapon against infantry, but the size of the support weapons meant that they would never miss, making any of the debuffs from been suppressed almost meaningless.
Suppression cuts DPS down to 15%/20% if the squad doesn't need to reload. 5 Squads of anything are more than likely to be able to destroy frontally any MG if they can volley fire the gunner. More so if you enjoy a little bit of light cover and the squad is vetted. Don't forget MGs don't get any defensive RA and the crew already has 1.25 size.
Ye, I understand this, but still rifles\cons firepower is based on close-to-mid range, which means thats situations with braidead A-moving mostlikely wont be possible because squads wont have enouth of a DPS to kill an MG, even without RA modifiers. Elite inf for sure can, but they are elite after all and having multiple elite squads be it airborn or obersts requare a ton of MP anyway.
And as for the Allies both Vekers and 50.cal have enouth of a suppresion\damage to prevent such overruns aswell.
Only 5-men IS can realistically do such moves right now, thats why IS blob is the most frustrating to play against. Because well, MGs are kinda supposed to counter blobs after-all.
5 Mar 2021, 23:37 PM
#59
Posts: 1954
Only 5-men IS can realistically do such moves right now, thats why IS blob is the most frustrating to play against. Because well, MGs are kinda supposed to counter blobs after-all.
This isn't even close to true. It's just whining, not winning. You want to be able to buy 2 mgs, lock down half of the map with it, micro 2 units and win. It's inane that you think the person camping with the MG should win that engagement. They couldn't have even been paying attention to it or they would've retreated it with a couple models. No decent player leaves a MG alone like that. There's nothing to give it sight, nothing to protect it from getting flanked. In short, the camper is probably a worse player than the A-mover.
So 5 squads, out of cover A moving MG in green cover suppose to beat it? Mkay. You must be enjoying playing as brits
Five squads of anything will beat any mg. Also, a vickers has worse suppression than an MG42, and a blob of 5 obers, falls, or JLI's absolutely melts a vickers, it doesn't even have to be that many.
6 Mar 2021, 00:24 AM
#60
Posts: 1594
This isn't even close to true. It's just whining, not winning. You want to be able to buy 2 mgs, lock down half of the map with it, micro 2 units and win. It's inane that you think the person camping with the MG should win that engagement. They couldn't have even been paying attention to it or they would've retreated it with a couple models. No decent player leaves a MG alone like that. There's nothing to give it sight, nothing to protect it from getting flanked. In short, the camper is probably a worse player than the A-mover.
If you flank the MG you win with even a single squad, if you charge it frontally you really ought to lose with basically any number of squads. Being able to take them on frontally with a blob of infantry is counter to how they're ostensibly supposed to be designed.
Why should someone charging an MG frontally win the engagement? The point of MGs is to be able to hold off multiple infantry squads through suppression, the weakness of the unit being its relative lack of mobility, and the fact it can only fire in an arc in front of itself.
The guy a-moving directly through an MG's arc is absolutely a worse player than the guy with the MG. He DIDN'T flank the MG that was out alone in the open like that, and yet he still won (In this case he won because of an oversight in design, which has since been rectified)
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