Current state of the IS-2

High pen makes panther able to posses some treat to heavies. It should not 1v1 them, they are spammable for a reason. You can also use it in conjunction with jp4 so that when Panther flanks an IS-2 Jp4 will shoot it from the front. That's how you're supposed to kill a heavy tank, overwhelm it. 2 SU-85s without support can get beaten up by the Tiger too, they are just more based on range and pen rather than armour and maneuverability, so they are used diffrently.

Show me exactly where have I said that. I have only mentioned that IS-2 despite it's higher price and CP requirements gets heavily crippled by a single panther. I have also mentioned that KV-2 does a better job in that department, which is laughable. That's why I want IS-2 to stand up from the rest and be stronger but at a higher cost.

????

decided to show some testing, it's pretty much equal to a tiger
https://imgur.com/a/VmgZQfx

the last img is vs tiger which basically came to which unit bounced more and they pretty much have equal chance

Panther is meant to counter IS-2.

I was refering to this. Vipper suggested that Panther should do a better job at killing IS-2, and I explained why this should not be the case. Can you please stop picking some lines from 2 pages ago? Even my initial post mentions that IS-2 wins, but gets heavily damaged. And why do you just skip my latest posts? Read everything I wanted to communicate.

decided to show some testing, it's pretty much equal to a tiger
https://imgur.com/a/VmgZQfx

the last img is vs tiger which basically came to which unit bounced more and they pretty much have equal chance

IS being equal to a panther is just sad.
Also Tiger despite the same cost wins 2/3 times. I have done 12 test fights and IS-2 only succeded in 4 of them. It's just the IS-2s crap damage per shot and very long reload that make him lose more often.

I was refering to this. Vipper suggested that Panther should do a better job at killing IS-2, and I explained why this should not be the case. Can you please stop picking some lines from 2 pages ago? Even my initial post mentions that IS-2 wins, but gets heavily damaged. And why do you just skip my latest posts? Read everything I wanted to communicate.

dude no u responded to me with that it's on the same page don't try to slitter ur self out and blame me

IS being equal to a panther is just sad.
Also Tiger despite the same cost wins 2/3 times. I have done 12 test fights and IS-2 only succeded in 4 of them. It's just the IS-2s crap damage per shot and very long reload that make him lose more often.

it's not equal it wins 80% of the time , and u are a big hypocrite as u just said win most of the time (since u consider is2 beating panther equal) means equal but in ur test tiger won only 2/3 of the time , does that not mean they are equal by ur own words ?

dude no u responded to me with that it's on the same page don't try to slitter ur self out and blame me

In my initial post I mentioned that IS-2 wins while being heavili damaged. In this post that you mention I have just said that it should stay like that, because someone else tried to convince me that IS-2 should get beaten by a panther.
I'm not a native englishspeaker but a sentence "Panther shouldn't 1v1 an IS-2" means that I think panther should lose. It doesn't state that Panther currently wins, does it? I meant that it should be that way.

it already loses to is2 so what's the issue ?

nobody is planing to buff ROF or damage or health of panther

the fight with the tiger is basically a coin toss (more armor and pen vs higher rof)

this leaving aside is2 is more of an AI tank (big aoe and good scatter)

it's not equal it wins 80% of the time , and u are a big hypocrite as u just said win most of the time (since u consider is2 beating panther equal) means equal but in ur test tiger won only 2/3 of the time , does that not mean they are equal by ur own words ?

Okay I should have said almost equal, I agree with you.
But this does not change the fact, that IS-2 costs 50 fuel more, requires 12 CP and is present in only 2 commanders.
At the same time Tiger and IS-2 cost the same but the fights are one sided. Also the tiger is present in more doctrines and they can be very versitile.

Okay I should have said almost equal, I agree with you.
But this does not change the fact, that IS-2 costs 50 fuel more, requires 12 CP and is present in only 2 commanders.
At the same time Tiger and IS-2 cost the same but the fights are one sided. Also the tiger is present in more doctrines and they can be very versitile.

DUDE it's not 1 sided it's literally a matter of 1 shoot bouncinjg the is 2 has more pen and amror so it's more consistent while the tiger has more ROF so more chance to pen
here the stats https://coh2.serealia.ca/#95

and i already showed u in the img that it's basically 1 shoot difference so who is more lucky i could do 100 test and im quite sure it would be something like 45 to 55 for one or the other

it already loses to is2 so what's the issue ?

nobody is planing to buff ROF or damage or health of panther

the fight with the tiger is basically a coin toss (more armor and pen vs higher rof)

The point of this entire discussion, is that I want to make IS-2 stand out by increasing it's price and CP requirements and make it actually give a big punch with lower ROF.
I want the tank to get an overhaul, and to be between Tiger level and Konigstiger level, because it's currently not viable in both 4v4s and 1v1s/2v2s.
Just give the tank some love it deserves so it can be at least useful in team games like the Tiger is.

DUDE it's not 1 sided it's literally a matter of 1 shoot bouncinjg the is 2 has more pen and amror so it's more consistent while the tiger has more ROF so more chance to pen
here the stats https://coh2.serealia.ca/#95

and i already showed u in the img that it's basically 1 shoot difference so who is more lucky i could do 100 test and im quite sure it would be something like 45 to 55 for one or the other

I said that i have preformed 12 fights and IS-2 loses 2/3 of them. If this is not one sided, I don't know what is. Also keep in mind that when fighting from the side Tiger will beat IS even more

i think lelic pretty much is set to make tiger and is2 equals not is2 and tigerB

i think lelic pretty much is set to make tiger and is2 equals not is2 and tigerB

Yeah I am aware of that, but since KV-2 is a thing, I have suggested that IS-2 could be a little bit above Tiger, similar to a Tiger Ace. I feel that the KV-2 is just overall better now, and IS-2 being a level above would spice things up and make the game more diverse. It just doesn't make sense to me, that soviets get 2 heavies which cost the same and have somewhat the same role, while one is simply better than the other. I also backed up my claims from a historical point of view.

I said that i have preformed 12 fights and IS-2 loses 2/3 of them. If this is not one sided, I don't know what is. Also keep in mind that when fighting from the side Tiger will beat IS even more

again it's statistical oddities basically when u trow a coin u don't get always head and coin in sequence , for example in the test i did with tiger vs is 2 the is 2 won 4 time in a row by a small margins and i obvs not gonna say is2 opop cause of some lucky steak, i uderstand that if i did the test 100 1000 10000 etc it would follow the middle as u can even do the math for the engament
at mid range is2 has 76,7% to pen a tiger while the tiger has a 64,4% to pen a is 2 but fires around 1 second slower , so it get's around 1-2 shoot more depending on how often they pen

and the is2 has the obvs advantage of having an aoe of 5 instead of 3,5

Okay I should have said almost equal, I agree with you.
But this does not change the fact, that IS-2 costs 50 fuel more, requires 12 CP and is present in only 2 commanders.
At the same time Tiger and IS-2 cost the same but the fights are one sided. Also the tiger is present in more doctrines and they can be very versitile.

The Panther is an AT unit, the IS2 is not. That's why it costs extra.
From what I know the fights between Tiger and IS2 favor the Tiger. However it is not the only thing to consider. Allies pay less to get a reliable counter. If Allies go for heavy tanks, Axis is almost forced into a Panther (I know JP4/Stug CAN work, but they are not reliable).
I don't think that the balance between Panther and Allied heavies is far off. The Panther usually cannot kill them in a 1v1, but it is good enough to block any kind of break through attempts and punish/kill them if they have been mispositioned.

If you think the Panther should not be sufficient to retain an IS2, why should Axis be forced to invest more resources and pop into counters that can be used for AT only (you previously talked about Panther + StuG/JP4, so about 30 pop), while the Soviet player should only invest 21 pop into an allrounder? That would be actual misbalance.

As Axis you currently invest less resources and pop into a unit that will be mostly busy with pushing back vs the IS2. If you manage to cancel the IS2's effectiveness (which the Panther definitely can), you've gained a small pop and resource advantage to invest somewhere else. If not, the Soviet player can rightfully gain an advantage which is fair because his investment is higher.

And to make it clear: I am not saying that everything about the IS2/heavies in general is perfect, but overall the matchup Panther/Allied heavy is not far from the optimum.

Great theory but once again false. I am pretty sure that a unit with 51 pop can not be spammed even without a unit limit so categorically NO, your theory is simply false.
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A 51 pop IS effectively a hard cap in standard game modes (a hard cap combined with a fuck you and your army to be accurate) the only pojnt that it would not be would be a custom high pop game.

The point of this entire discussion, is that I want to make IS-2 stand out by increasing it's price and CP requirements and make it actually give a big punch with lower ROF.
I want the tank to get an overhaul, and to be between Tiger level and Konigstiger level, because it's currently not viable in both 4v4s and 1v1s/2v2s.
Just give the tank some love it deserves so it can be at least useful in team games like the Tiger is.

And what make you think that KT is more cost efficient than Tiger?

If you think the Panther should not be sufficient to retain an IS2, why should Axis be forced to invest more resources and pop into counters that can be used for AT only (you previously talked about Panther + StuG/JP4, so about 30 pop), while the Soviet player should only invest 21 pop into an allrounder? That would be actual misbalance.

Panther's armour with some other means of AT have very big potential to fully destroy the IS-2, that's what i meant. I understand your point of view, but the changes I suggested to the IS-2 would also increase it's cost, and by that I also mean popcap. It would still be a worthy trade to defeat the soviet superheavy.

Lower rof and higher damage for the IS-2 would also mean that it's micro potential would be higher, as you could reverse after every shot, but it would preform not so well while fighting straight face to face. I don't want the IS-2 to wreck everything, I just think that it should be an investment having impact on the game, while also feeling unique, and not falling into the category of "welp i guess my commander has it so i might just as well try to use it".

And what make you think that KT is more cost efficient than Tiger?

I have never mentioned cost efficency. I was talking singular unit efficiency and overall strenght. I want the IS to be less powerful than a KT but more powerful than Tiger - similar to a tiger ace, but with a diffrent feel to it (more damage per shot, lower ROF).

Also konigstiger is nondoc