Current state of the IS-2

The IS-2 was far from on par with the German cats though. It had siginifcant problems with reload time and adjusting the barrel. In WW2 tank engagements the gun would be slightly adjusted after the first miss. That was however a huge problem for the IS-2 since the barrel had to be put into the neutral position to be reloaded and then readjusted to fire again. That lead to quite a slow rate of fire and low accuracy. The thing was built to break through defenses, not fight tanks. But hey, big gun. Must be good.

As for gameplay and balance: Why would it perform better than the Tiger if both vehicles cost the same?

Why does Tiger preform way better than IS-2 currently, if they both cost the same?
And by the way, I said that is should do more damage per shot and BE MORE COSTY while having lower rate of fire. Why don't you just read my initial post?

Why just don't make the same treatment like it was made for isu-152? Switchable rounds - AP and HE. Give to AP shells more accuracy and pen, but drastically decrease ability to kill infantry (it somehow was made for HVAP rounds of M4c Sherman). For HE shells reduced range but bigger AOE. One of the most visible problems of IS-2 is shitty accuracy, when it miss even in close range.

The IS-2 was far from on par with the German cats though. It had siginifcant problems with reload time and adjusting the barrel. In WW2 tank engagements the gun would be slightly adjusted after the first miss. That was however a huge problem for the IS-2 since the barrel had to be put into the neutral position to be reloaded and then readjusted to fire again. That lead to quite a slow rate of fire and low accuracy. The thing was built to break through defenses, not fight tanks. But hey, big gun. Must be good.

As for gameplay and balance: Why would it perform better than the Tiger if both vehicles cost the same?

King Tigers were literally prohibited from engaging IS-2, because IS-2 didn't needed to penetrate KT or regular tiger to kill it, just to hit it, sheer concussion force from its shell was enough to disable tank and/or splinter steel inside and kill the crew. Big guns were good for this particular reason.

Also, why wouldn't it perform better at something then Tiger?
Tiger got:
More range
Better RoF
Less scatter
More speed
Better acceelration

IS-2 got bit better penetration and better armor.

King Tigers were literally prohibited from engaging IS-2, because IS-2 didn't needed to penetrate KT or regular tiger to kill it, just to hit it, sheer concussion force from its shell was enough to disable tank and/or splinter steel inside and kill the crew. Big guns were good for this particular reason.

Also, why wouldn't it perform better at something then Tiger?
Tiger got:
More range
Better RoF
Less scatter
More speed
Better acceelration

IS-2 got bit better penetration and better armor.

Tigers crews, not King Tigers.

Tigers crews, not King Tigers.

Even better, changes nothing about what I've said short of subject, while stripping even more glory of the "mythical hitlerium-infused tiger tank".

Panther is supposed to counter all medium tanks and can be spammed. It's also way cheaper than IS-2 and does not require CP. IS-2 is supposed to be countered by Elefant, Jagdtiger, Konigstiger, Jp4s, Stugs, Pak 40s, Pak 43s and finally Schrecks. IS-2 should indeed counter panther, germans have a lot more options to deal with heavy tanks AND THOSE OPTIONS SHOULD BE UTILIZED, not abandonded. You just want to spam one unit to kill everything, and that's not how the game works

mmhh no ? i mean why would it need that high pen ? jp4 counters medium as it has rof and low pen

-snip sorry didn't mean to dogpile on you-

mmhh no ? i mean why would it need that high pen ? jp4 counters medium as it has rof and low pen

High pen makes panther able to posses some treat to heavies. It should not 1v1 them, they are spammable for a reason. You can also use it in conjunction with jp4 so that when Panther flanks an IS-2 Jp4 will shoot it from the front. That's how you're supposed to kill a heavy tank, overwhelm it. 2 SU-85s without support can get beaten up by the Tiger too, they are just more based on range and pen rather than armour and maneuverability, so they are used diffrently.

High pen makes panther able to posses some treat to heavies. It should not 1v1 them, they are spammable for a reason. You can also use it in conjunction with jp4 so that when Panther flanks an IS-2 Jp4 will shoot it from the front. That's how you're supposed to kill a heavy tank, overwhelm it. 2 SU-85s without support can get beaten up by the Tiger too, they are just more based on range and pen rather than armour and maneuverability, so they are used diffrently.

Panther are simply not spammable, the have high cost and high pop so that they can not be spammed...

Panther are simply not spammable, the have high cost and high pop so that they can not be spammed...

By that logic, comets and churchills aren't spammable either and yet there were measures taken against spamming them. So I guess we can revert these changes, because both are too expensive and pop heavy to be spammable.

The only thing that makes unit non spammable is unit limit.
Its not always good idea to spam some units, but to say they aren't spammable, when in the past we clearly had meta examples of spam of more expensive units means you're completely wrong as you're basing it on your very own definitions of what spam is.

Panther is expensive, but its most certainly spammable.
You're playing team games mostly so you know for a fact they are spammable and spammed, its baffling you even attempt to argue they aren't.

By that logic, comets and churchills aren't spammable either and yet there were measures taken against spamming them. So I guess we can revert these changes, because both are too expensive and pop heavy to be spammable.

The only thing that makes unit non spammable is unit limit.

Great theory but once again false. I am pretty sure that a unit with 51 pop can not be spammed even without a unit limit so categorically NO, your theory is simply false.

Its not always good idea to spam some units, but to say they aren't spammable, when in the past we clearly had meta examples of spam of more expensive units means you're completely wrong as you're basing it on your very own definitions of what spam is.

Panther is expensive, but its most certainly spammable.
You're playing team games mostly so you know for a fact they are spammable and spammed, its baffling you even attempt to argue they aren't.

Pop serves as anti spam measure. It is even in patch notes:

"Panzer V Panther
The Panther has received adjustments to make it more accessible in 1v1 but less attractive to field groups of Panthers in team games due to increased fire on the move penalties and increased population."

Now I know that you feel a need to disagree with anything and everything I post, but I am sure the community is tired by it so I suggest you give it a rest.

And why do you even say all of that? Do you want Panther to 1v1 IS-2 because it has a high cost? You can still make multiple Panthers and 2 Panthers will always win, Panther with proper support will win too, but single panther should get wrecked similary to a single Su-85 while fighting a Tiger. Panther is not a hard counter, it's very potent when used in a pair or with some other AT support. That's how the game works

And why do you even say all of that?

Because it is true.

Do you want Panther to 1v1 IS-2 because it has a high cost?

It is not about what I want, it is about what the mod team has decided to do. And yes the mod team want the Panther to act as a stock counter to Super heavies like IS-2

You can still make multiple Panthers and 2 Panthers will always win, Panther with proper support will win too, but single panther should get wrecked similary to a single Su-85 while fighting a Tiger. Panther is not a hard counter, it's very potent when used in a pair or with some other AT support. That's how the game works

Yes you can make more than one Panther but above is not really advisable. In the other hand if player A build 2 Panther then player B could/should be able to field an IS-2 support by either SU-85 or multiple SU-76 or other ATG.

The Tiger SU-85 analogy is simply misleading. SU-84 is cheaper than Panther and with Range 60.

The Tiger SU-85 analogy is simply misleading. SU-84 is cheaper than Panther and with Range 60.

How is that misleading? It's the only vehicle in soviet arsenal capable of at least trying to fight a Tiger.
SU-85s require way more micro to defeat a Tiger, and even then you will need support. Panther on the other hand can tank a lot of damage, but due to it's versitility and mobility it just shouldn't own a tank that costs 50 fuel more, requires 12 CP and has a number limit!

Yes you can make more than one Panther but above is not really advisable.

Oh maybe it's not advisable when you oppose some crap T-34s and Shermans, but when IS-2 appeears - a tank that is only present in 2 commanders, you should adapt to the situation and make a second one? How can that not be obvious to you? Why do you think that your one universal strategy should always defeat the enemy despite their joice to waste a lot of resources on a damn super heavy?
Come on man, I know you have a long history of complaining about allies being OP, but the game is about adapting to situation, not whining that "IS-2 combined with SU-85 kills my tanks" because you must fight them from the front and you can't think of a better strategy than overpowering your opponent.

Oh and actually I've just tested that. Face to face 2 panthers will still kill the IS-2 before the first one of them is dead, and it will leave a 1v1 situation when SU-85 fights a full HP panther.
lol

How is that misleading? It's the only vehicle in soviet arsenal capable of at least trying to fight a Tiger.
SU-85s require way more micro to defeat a Tiger, and even then you will need support. Panther on the other hand can tank a lot of damage, but due to it's versitility and mobility it just shouldn't own a tank that costs 50 fuel more, requires 12 CP and has a number limit!

It's not that I disagree with you but the game is mostly balanced around 1vs1 and panther in 1vs1 isn't really spammable so it needs to stand to the IS2.

I think the IS2 is in an awkawrd position where since it isn't the top dog in AT then there are little reasons to pick it, KV2 or ISU-152 are better overall in every situation you may face as Soviet.
Since your main AT dealer will always be the Su-85 then better having a AI specialist that can stand its ground even vs the panther than a mediocre all around heavy tank.

btw why do u say that panther 1 vs 1 is2 ? it loses 80% of the times

btw why do u say that panther 1 vs 1 is2 ? it loses 80% of the times

Show me exactly where have I said that. I have only mentioned that IS-2 despite it's higher price and CP requirements gets heavily crippled by a single panther. I have also mentioned that KV-2 does a better job in that department, which is laughable. That's why I want IS-2 to stand up from the rest and be stronger but at a higher cost.