Zis-3 as an AT gun

Yall acting like the zis barrage isn't along side conscripts whom lack a proper nade and lack centralized DPS. Their whole shtick is that everything that isn't a dedicated specialist is flexible so that a host or meh performing units can still tackle any task. A worse pak would be just shit from an interest and balance perspective

no idea what you are talking about, cons are very good and have everything you need to defend a zis gun including merge.

Do you still feel this applies for the balance patch Zis Barrage? It's slowed down significantly per shell compared to live.

I did not play enough games with or against it to have an opinion on it that im confident enough to defend since i focused more on t1 penal play than cons +t2 but so far it felt alot more rewarding to react in time than in the live version.

Conscripts are presently one of the best line infantry squads in the game, I think it's beyond the time of using them as an argument for other units being overtuned.

Cons are decent, but they still lack burst potential of grenades and focus fire weapons, while the enemy does not. Being able to knock out models rapidly is a core component of the game right now and cons are one of the only squads in the game that is punished for losing models via linear DPS drop. You can knock out 3/4 lmg gren models and while it would indeed be stupid to keep em on the field, their overall DPS output remains largely intact. You take out 3 models of a con squad and half their dps is gone.

This isn't to say that it's an issue of this design and I by no means want a centralized DPS option for cons, but how they operate needs to be taken into consideration.

Whats more, as said previously, paying the se for a pak but flat out worse with no advantages is shitty balance.
The zis is worse at AT but more versatile. This is OK, even good design. It allows the unit to not over perform in one spot, "and still have other advantages thus justifying its price.
The isu is an extreme example of this philosophy.
As much as people like to bitch about the isu and its AP shells existence, without the option of having AP its AI would need to be massive to justify its price. We had that at one point and it was dreadfully oppressive.

A lot of things go into balancing a unit, some of these things are "needless extras" that keep its performance where it's wanted.

Nobody would argue that ZIS AT performance is top tier, it's middle of the road statistically, but is still priced as the two above it, in part because of the barrage. It's part of the whole. We don't want stock paks with 6 man crews so we have a worse pak with flexibility but the same cost. The price is justified by the package and the package by the price. Start fucking around with one and the other has to change. Start changing the price and you invite a whole host of other unintended changes. Start fucking around with the package and the cost effeciency gets thrown off as well as resounding effects like the soviet, pound for pound getting less for the price than ost in performance and utility.

And to wrap around, get rid of the barrage and soviet have no burst potential whatsoever in their opening tiers. They are designed with the barrage in mind as an option to fill the whole missing elsewhere. And cons with a nade would be far more oppressive than the occasional zis barrage.

Cons are decent, but they still lack burst potential of grenades and focus fire weapons, while the enemy does not. Being able to knock out models rapidly is a core component of the game right now and cons are one of the only squads in the game that is punished for losing models via linear DPS drop. You can knock out 3/4 lmg gren models and while it would indeed be stupid to keep em on the field, their overall DPS output remains largely intact. You take out 3 models of a con squad and half their dps is gone.

This isn't to say that it's an issue of this design and I by no means want a centralized DPS option for cons, but how they operate needs to be taken into consideration.

I mean, this is taken into consideration, isnt it? Conscripts are an utility squad that trades favourably with axis infantry, particularly once it gets the 7-man upgrade, and vets up. They're not intended as a burst damage/focus fire squad, they're there to take points and make the enemy bleed hard trying to get them back.

Centralised DPS is less an issue for SOV due to merge, and they even already have units (Guards, who are admittedly doctrinal) to fulfil that function. In any case, Conscripts are an exceedingly good infantry squad, with a lot going for it.

Whats more, as said previously, paying the se for a pak but flat out worse with no advantages is shitty balance.
The zis is worse at AT but more versatile. This is OK, even good design. It allows the unit to not over perform in one spot, "and still have other advantages thus justifying its price.
The isu is an extreme example of this philosophy.
As much as people like to bitch about the isu and its AP shells existence, without the option of having AP its AI would need to be massive to justify its price. We had that at one point and it was dreadfully oppressive.

A lot of things go into balancing a unit, some of these things are "needless extras" that keep its performance where it's wanted.

The zis is marginally worse at AT, sure, but it is also more survivable and has the incredibly valuable Barrage. Making the Barrage less effective than it is now is unlikely to make the unit useless or overpriced, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

I'm pretty sure the ISU-152 is an anti-tank vehicle, and the HE shells are the thing that people complain about... not the AP shells. Reminds me of another unit, actually.

And to wrap around, get rid of the barrage and soviet have no burst potential whatsoever in their opening tiers. They are designed with the barrage in mind as an option to fill the whole missing elsewhere. And cons with a nade would be far more oppressive than the occasional zis barrage.

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been suggested that the Barrage is being "gotten rid of", at least not meaningfully by anyone with the ability to make that so.

What's being suggested (and being implemented in the Balance Patch) is a nerf to the Barrage to make it less oppressive. It doesn't need to be oppressive to be an useful unit or ability.

Making the Barrage less effective than it is now is unlikely to make the unit useless or overpriced,

Yes, it is doing exactly that. Take away the arguably average barrage on an average unit and you're making a core necessary unit even worse. Why are you so fixated on this ability? It doesn't even kill and making someone move a few meters to the side isn't worth 30 munitions.

Yes, it is doing exactly that. Take away the arguably average barrage on an average unit and you're making a core necessary unit even worse. Why are you so fixated on this ability? It doesn't even kill and making someone move a few meters to the side isn't worth 30 munitions.

Since when is it an average ability? It does fantastic damage quickly, from a very good range, and dependent on luck, can quite easily wipe team weapons.

Why try and misrepresent Barrage as an "Average" ability? If all it does is "make someone move a few meters to the side", how exactly does it stop doing this with the slower barrage?

If anything people blow zis barrages effectiveness out of preportion.

Yes the at power is good, just not as good as the others. The barrage is a fantistic ability to have esp since soviets lack stock nades to swing (even bad) inf engagements in their favor or retreat wipe or wiping power in general.
It has great range and when/if it scores a direct hit it does good damage. But it rarely wipes anything with the first let alone follow up shots.

This last bit is blown out of preportion. People seem to claim its a wipe ability for only a tiny bit of munition.

Imo the barrage is fine, it does its job without being a wipe machine.

Zis barrage is the counterpart of Brumbar: an assault gun unit Soviet are lacking in its roster. Nobody is complaining the brumbar can force a retreat with one shot or kill a team weapon squad with two thus nobody shall complain about Zis being able to perform worst but still be effective in the same activity.

Imo the problem about this situation is the meta revolving around 2 atgun for each faction allowing Soviet to have two barrage available. But we can't just balance the Zis gun around its performance when they are two entities. (Well in fact this balance team is capable of, look at the scott)

As a solution, couldn't be possible to gives Zis barrage a shared cooldown for all Zis and keep it performing as it is in live?

Since when is it an average ability? It does fantastic damage quickly, from a very good range, and dependent on luck, can quite easily wipe team weapons.

Well done, you just contradicted yourself. You yourself say it relies on luck and no, it doesn't do "fantastic damage". When was the last time you played Soviets and used the ZiS? Because I have a feeling like you haven't at all if you're saying what you're saying.

As a solution, couldn't be possible to gives Zis barrage a shared cooldown for all Zis and keep it performing as it is in live?

If you want a shared cooldown then the barrage would have to be made basically OP to justify butchering it like that.

Zis barrage is the counterpart of Brumbar: an assault gun unit Soviet are lacking in its roster. Nobody is complaining the brumbar can force a retreat with one shot or kill a team weapon squad with two thus nobody shall complain about Zis being able to perform worst but still be effective in the same activity.

Imo the problem about this situation is the meta revolving around 2 atgun for each faction allowing Soviet to have two barrage available. But we can't just balance the Zis gun around its performance when they are two entities. (Well in fact this balance team is capable of, look at the scott)

As a solution, couldn't be possible to gives Zis barrage a shared cooldown for all Zis and keep it performing as it is in live?

Soviets have an assault gun it is called SU-76.

If you want a shared cooldown then the barrage would have to be made basically OP to justify butchering it like that.

Not necesarily. Cooldown could be reduced or the price reduced as adjustment, at the end the idea is to still use combined arms to deal with your opponent, not combined Zis barrage. It could also be combined with the Su-76 barrage bringing more diversity in the build.

Soviets have an assault gun it is called SU-76.

Ah yes, the unit barely anyone uses because it's paper thin with mediocre all around performance and needs an ability to do what the Brummbar can only worse. Great comparison.

Ah yes, the unit barely anyone uses because it's paper thin with mediocre all around performance and needs an ability to do what the Brummbar can only worse. Great comparison.

Try to get your fact straight, I have simply pointed out that the claim that the Soviet do not have an assault gun is factually false, I have not mention brumbar in anyway.

I did not compare the Brumbar with SU-76, you have, but your claim that is also false. Both units have auto-fire and barrage, their auto-fire serve different roles (AI/AT) and the barrage is vet 1 for brumbar.

Their timing cost and tech cost are also completely different so I am not sure what you want to compare.

Try to get your fact straight, I have simply pointed out that the claim that the Soviet do not have an assault gun is false, I have not mention brumbar in anyway.

That does not contribute anything to the discussion then.

Until the SU76 finds a proper, usable role in the Soviet rooster again, it is not relevant for the current discussion.


On topic though:
I think Soviets need their ZiS barrage, otherwise they have literally no means to burst models until the late game Katy. All of their infantry has highly decentralized DPS and grenades are hard to get. If you play a non-elite infantry doctrine you won't get any at all.

I think this is also why the T70 is so good: Because it is the first unit that let's you actually burst down models instead of slowly picking them away.
Soviet Con/T2 builds have a hard time wiping infantry, the barrage is the only way to do that (again, until Katy).
The nerf it got might be slightly overdone, at least it looked like this to me in the tournament. But to be fair I have not played with it in the preview patch, so I can't really judge. A CD nerf would have also been in order in my opinion, since the main problem is two ZiS barraging constantly in the late game.

That does not contribute anything to the discussion then.

Until the SU76 finds a proper, usable role in the Soviet rooster again, it is not relevant for the current discussion.
...

Zis barrage is the counterpart of Brumbar: an assault gun unit Soviet are lacking in its roster. ...

Imo it does it proves this argument to be false, since SU-76 is an assault gun.

The reason zis even has barrage a barrage has nothing to do with brumbar.

It comes from the original Soviet designed that wanted some of the stock soviet units to be "jack of all trades and master of none"

The problem started to appear when some of these units become good at their role while keeping their extra utility.

In the case of zis one can start but increasing the CD of barrage and either moving to Vet 1 or removing the mini map info from tracking since the combination of barrage and "map hack" should not be available.

since the main problem is two ZiS barraging constantly in the late game.

Barrage cost muni and constantly barraging = no mines, no weapon upgrades, no offmap.
Muni cost regulates.

Imo it does it proves this argument to be false, since SU-76 is an assault gun.

Yes, this is the topic of this thread alright.

The problem started to appear when some of these units become good at their role while keeping their extra utility.

This has nothing to do with the ZiS.

The problem started to appear when some of these units become good at their role while keeping their extra utility.

It might blow your balls away, but being good, which is compared to previous state of the unit(being terribad usually, when it comes to stock soviet units) still does not mean being on pair with opponents.

Also, explain, when and how ZiS became better at AT to warrant any barrage nerfs?

snip

Neither ZiS nor SU76 have anything to do with the Brummbar. Such is mentioning the SU76 being an assault gun as a response to Esxile's claim. It simply has nothing to do with the discussion.

Barrage cost muni and constantly barraging = no mines, no weapon upgrades, no offmap.
Muni cost regulates.

There are multiple ways to balance abilities, but tying them to cost alone creates heavy differences between modes.
Making abilities powerful and expensive will lead to strange cheese tactics, making them weak and cheap might make them feel useless and not worth the micro effort.
The damage the ZiS barrage does is in order for 35-ish munition in my opinion. I would not screw around with that too much since it feels in line with other abilities. If the issue is spamability, CD might be the way to go.