OKW Spec Ops Doctrine (especially Radio Silence)

I'm no game designer. I'd change it in a way that it won't mess with your interface. Out of the top of my head: Maybe something in the direction of making the units camouflaged in cover and slightly faster when out of combat but with a bigger detection radius. This way it still fits the theme of the commander and allow your units to creep up on the enemy, jumping from cover to cover in order to close in (like they did historically at the beginning of the battle of the bulge on which the commander is based) without casting a magic spell where your units suddenly disappear from the minimap.

Slightly off topic, but I think this debate at least partially comes down to which value we want to give to the mini map / tac map. Do we see it as an addition to the normal "direct camera"? Or a real alternative? Do we expect players to be able to play both ways?
What radio silence does in the end just like other abilities is increase the micro tax of the opponent to keep his units efficient, since he needs to check more frequently if they are okay and well positioned. Other abilities (off map smokes and recons) do that too although in a different way.
I think there is nothing inherently wrong with modifying HUD elements of your opponent. RUSE for example did an exceptional job at that. But where I think that this ability falls short is that it does not really work for all players. I see the tac map more as an addon. Nice to have to get a better overview, but in the end I don't use it that often. Other players spent half their game in that, and again others don't use it at all. So half of the ability is either worth more than its price or nothing at all.
I don't know if your suggestion is the perfect solution to this since it could create a whole lot more issues, but it is at least unique and would fir the theme. I like it, definitely worth a try.

I still don't see how 20 munitions infiltration are justified. They can result in a squad wipe quite easily. And by looking at their price tag you can usually afford them without much resource handling. Also they are hard to dodge, because they get thrown around erratically that even if you dodge you still get caugt in the blast.

Yes, I see your point. I don't view them as a major problem at the moment, but maybe that's because the whole commander has fallen out of favor. Maybe some changes to the AoE stats could fix it. Although I'd rather change them to a more consistent, but overall less damage.

I say, we dont nerf anything and wait for the next commander rewamp and Spec ops should be just remade into something different.

Because lets be honest here Radio Silence is just a strange ability, only good players can make a significant impact with it, while flares are just cheesy.
But even flares are usefull only if you are either in 1v1 or pre-made with someone. Since if you just need vision, you can just use standart recon or even smoke recon run.

But if you ask me, aside from this two abilities, spec opps is at best mediocre commander, for the majority of the players.

My suggestion as an adhoc fix until more granular adjustments can be made with a commander patch:

- Radio Silence: Make units reappear as soon as they are in combat (similar like VonAsten suggested), units have normal speed at this point, raise munition cost from 40 to 50

-Radio silence: it only became competitive for top50 1v1 the moment you gave it sprint. But you could argue it was made effective for the rest of the playerbase.

Solution: Units appear the moment they enter combat status. Probable increase cost.

-Infiltration nades: just increase the cost to 30.

-Flares: add it to the Command Panther and the UHU. Now it opens up a slot for the commander.
Add something like Signal relay, Sturm offizier or Goliath.

A big problem with making changes to Spec Ops, as I brought up before, is that overall the doc is frankly subpar/mediocre compared to its siblings such as Feuer or Breakthrough.

Breakthrough??? Spec ops is loads better than breakthrough

Breakthrough is like team game exclusive and even then it's meh

-Flares: add it to the Command Panther and the UHU. Now it opens up a slot for the commander.

I don't think the commander needs more abilities. Gives you more than enough already

Breakthrough??? Spec ops is loads better than breakthrough

Breakthrough is like team game exclusive and even then it's meh

Jagdtiger, Sturmoffizier, Assault Artillery and pzfusiliers are meh?

Jagdtiger, Assault Artillery and pzfusiliers are meh?

Lol yes. The jagdtiger is completely meh. So easy to counter. And like I said completely unusable 1v1

Fusiliers are the only reliable thing on the commander. Assault artillery is so easy to avoid, yeah it sucks

Lol yes. The jagdtiger is completely meh. So easy to counter. And like I said completely unusable 1v1

Fusiliers are the only reliable thing on the commander. Assault artillery is so easy to avoid, yeah it sucks

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of Breakthrough in teamgames.

-Flares: add it to the Command Panther and the UHU. Now it opens up a slot for the commander. Add something like Signal relay, Sturm offizier or Goliath.

I do like the idea of freeing up a slot for the Sturm Offizier. That unit needs to be in more doctrines and it'd fit the theme well enough.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of Breakthrough in teamgames.

Okay sure. Then you at least are agreeing it's bad in 1v1?

Spec ops works in any game mode. It's just far from "subpar" to breakthrough

Just so many off-maps that delete the jagd, and they're more common in team games. One decent soviet player and anyone with an offmap and that thing is gone. I killed 2 in one match last week with IL2 bombs. Ram wasn't even involved, but makes it even easier

I dont use the tac map, but at high level play you either use the minimap or the tacmap in order to handle engagements on multiple sides. Reactions need to happen fast and adjustwd to the ammount of threats if i see 4 points advancing me on the minimap an imediate reaction is neccesary.

That is what makes radio silence so OP with blovs you sprint on the flank and just wipe them. In 1vs1 its even worse becouse there engagements happen evrywhere (mostly 2vs2 player atm)

I dont mean to insult anyone. But i do feel like the peaple that think this ability is fine mostly play 4vs4 or 3vs3 or at a low skill level. In these gamemodes engagements only happen on one side, so you can basically keep an eye on your shit all the time.

This ability is completly busted for smaller modes being more strong than valiant assoult or even brit assoult (which also should be addressed IMO the reacon seems to much for 70 ammo)

I can only see this ability work if either sprint was removed again or cooldown was increased significantly (5min). Cost increase wont do so much since the commander doesnt have big muni sinks.

Or a complete rework, but as it stands this ability needs to change

The biggest insult to balance IMO is that it also hides tanks, which becomes even more cancerous

Okay sure. Then you at least are agreeing it's bad in 1v1?

Spec ops works in any game mode. It's just far from "subpar" to breakthrough

Just so many off-maps that delete the jagd, and they're more common in team games. One decent soviet player and anyone with an offmap and that thing is gone. I killed 2 in one match last week with IL2 bombs. Ram wasn't even involved, but makes it even easier

Sure, okay. It's poor in 1v1.

SpecOps is a meme doc in 3v3 as even 1000 rank players can spot you trying to sneak a tank on the flank. Or a mine. Perhaps some day I will delete someone's army with Bundles like in my recent vid due to Radio Silence but seems unlikely.

But I think Fire & Terror above explained it better than I can in my exhausted state. I guess this is the OKW 'Ostruppen' for 1v1 but useless outside of that.

SpecOps is a meme doc in 3v3 as even 1000 rank players can spot you trying to sneak a tank on the flank. Or a mine. Perhaps some day I will delete someone's army with Bundles like in my recent vid due to Radio Silence but seems unlikely.

Not giving enough respect to the command panther imo. It's def not OP like it used to be, but still a really really good unit. Especially in team games. All of the mark target abilities are stronger in team games

And the flares are obviously extra good in teams as well

I will say JagD can be very strong if you have an arranged team. If your working with mates it's so much harder for the enemy to deal with

Speaking of C.Panther the whole design is problematic. The unit is used more like a solo unit than a support unit and imo the units design should be looked at.

Either design a support vehicle that operates with rest of the army or design a Panther Ace and lose the "command" aspect...

Aura should start having an time active element.

nah, leave it alone. it adds flavour to the game, like planes killing units in base. there is a risk reward in using stuff in game

Lol yes. The jagdtiger is completely meh. So easy to counter. And like I said completely unusable 1v1

Fusiliers are the only reliable thing on the commander. Assault artillery is so easy to avoid, yeah it sucks

So true, even in team game like 2vs2 an Elefant + Halftrack with Spotting Scope is way better compare to Jadtiger commander.

Maybe lower the AT damage and range and let it have HE round (become a worse ISU-152) then maybe.

I disagree, I think there should have been more things with the idea of Radio Silence in the game. There should be more ways to play against your opponent than with combat alone. Arguably the mistake in execution however is that this is a global ability that -currently- doesn't have any drawbacks or requirements. Panzer Elite's Vampire Halftrack and the way it could steal resources back in CoHOF is a better implemented example of a "4 dimensional chess" ability.

Those are totally different things.

The Vampire Halftrack is a clever unit design where you hide it to steal resources. The opponent knows it's there and needs to find it. It interacts with the mechanics in an unusual way.

Radio Silence is "your opponent has bad UX for a minute." It's in the same camp as "randomly rebind your opponent's hotkeys for a minute" or "your opponent gets input lag for a minute" or "randomly adjust your opponent's headset volume." These designs are so rare for a reason: their purpose is solely to frustrate the opponent, which isn't what you want if your game to be enjoyable.

I do like the idea of freeing up a slot for the Sturm Offizier. That unit needs to be in more doctrines and it'd fit the theme well enough.

I could completely get behind replacing Radio Silence with Sturm Offizier.

Based on the curren feedback, getting rid of the tac map removal part of radio silence seems to be the best choice.
My rationale:
Lower skill players like me never use it for the tac map effect, so it wont effect us.
Higher skill players think it is op and want it removed.

This is the first time I've seen over 3 "pro" players post in a single tread, and they all agree that the tac map removal part of radio silence is OP.

Since one bracket of players want something nerfed because its op, and there are no negative effects on the rest of the playerbase, I'd say that removing the tack map removal part of radio silence is a really good change.

If the balance team wants to be conservative, it could be replaced with Tactical movement from Ost's blitzkrieg doctrine. Or, if they want to be spicy, maybe a completely new ability. I think giving the doctrine a new unit, like the Flame hetzer, could be really interesting as well, as most of the commander is just "extra" stuff, and not something that you can base your playstyle around.

Hetzer? naaaah, still too "conservative". why not a double P4 call in so the Command Panther (which is in the same doctrine) has something worth buffing. It also fits the theme of "special operations" so well, doesnt it...

...

but thanks for your rationale

So... What about binding radio silence to the command Panther and make it replace the Aura buffs for the duration?

Then you have a strong ability but it requires the command Panther, it's limited to the range of the command Aura AND the power of the Aura is not active for duration (what good is a command unit when it can't communicate?)

Makes it good for a pointed attack but predictable and contained with drawbacks.