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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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17 Dec 2020, 17:39 PM
#621
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 09:41 AMVipper

Well the thing is imo that giving a player choices instead of "braindead" upgrades is a good thing.

The implementation of it might need fine tuning but generally allowing the player to choose where and when he want to invest is something is a good thing.

MR now is split into two type of bonus:
One global effecting Penals reinforcement and Penal/conscripts XP gain
The 7 upgrade unlock


But they didn't reduce a T4 cost.
now MR will need additional cost and time. this will put more delay for T4 unit/passive while OST can skip tech with free upgraded.
17 Dec 2020, 17:53 PM
#622
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 17:39 PMvgfgff


But they didn't reduce a T4 cost.

No they did not. They however made MR easier to access in T3 and they made more powerful.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 17:39 PMvgfgff

now MR will need additional cost and time.

Only if one chooses to unlock it after T4. One can access it faster and it is more powerful.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 17:39 PMvgfgff

this will put more delay for T4 unit/passive ...

On the other hand one has the option to stay in T3 and get more powerful bonuses earlier.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 17:39 PMvgfgff

while OST can skip tech with free upgraded.

That is a silly a argument that simply is not no matter how many times some people repeat.

1) Ostheer have a linear tech system with BP thus it is impossible to skip tech.
2) Either all thing that comes with tech is "free" and all faction get "free" staff or nothing is free and all thing have a cost attached to them.

This horse is beaten to death so pls lets not resurrect it again.

Generally I suspect (one can not tell unless one does extensive testing) that Soviet infatry post patch will more powerful the prepatch.
17 Dec 2020, 18:21 PM
#623
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83


And you want cons to perform as an exceptionally good unit? I mean alright, does grenadiers perfom like an exceptionally good unit, when they face rifles\tommies? Does volks perfom like an exceptionally good unit when they face rifles\tommies?


They were exceptional in their cost efficiency, not perfromance. 7m cons on live aren't some scary damage dealers that melt Axis infantry, it's just that they are harder to wipe and can win some engagements when in cover. That's different from tommies/rifles who are expecptional in their combat performance. Now Cons are becoming more expeensive and less potent, which, after T70 nerfs, leaves Soviet with not a single unit that is great in some department. Every other faction has some units that everybody would like to have because of their excellent performance, usefulness or efficiency. Units like MG42/PAK/P4 for OST, rifles or jacksons for USF, sturmpios or P4 for OKW, tommies or Comets for UKF... Of course, the factions pay for that with other disadvantages – limited mainline infantry power for OST, overworked Sturmpios for OKW, no heavier armour for USF, low versatility for UKF. For SOV the two defining units are 7m cons and T70 and the disadvantages were overall poor combat performance of most units and lack of expensive late game units. Now both of those core units are being nerfed hard but disadvantages are not alleviated. That's the problem.


And on a side note. Considering MR doesnt requare both molys and AT nades, you can now get it even faster then before, because most of the time you will be skipping molotovs anyway.


Nobody ever payed for the upgrade at T3. It's expensive, there are other priorities like bringing in T4 and at T3 you don't even have enough muni to upgrade the squads anyway. Pay the fuel and MP jsut to ugprade one or two squads s incredibly inefficient at that timing.


And also cons litteraly just lost 10% acc on vet3, while now they will get +20% exp just by unlocking MR, meaning that Svt\PPsH or cons with picked up weapons will vet up faster and you are no longer locked into upgrading all cons with 7men in order to get benefits from MR.


The vet bonus being global doesn't matter. By the time you now get MR, every Cons squad instantly gets ugpraded anyway, you don't have any unupgraded untis running around, and most are about to hit vet 3 already, so there is little benefit. What matters about 7m upgrade is the increased damage output, which allows cons to directly engage Axis infantry, and the 7th model which makes the squads less likely to get wiped when biggest sources of damage become explosive. The 20% XP bonus is useful only for replacing lost squads.
17 Dec 2020, 19:34 PM
#624
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

This feels like a changelog which is incomplete and lacks the buffs to accompany the heavy nerfs you are giving across the board.


It nerfs all the "OP" tools SU have (but reminder that they are not good enough to compete meta wise) but there's no real compensation buffs and the changes they receive seems to lack the direction they need to solve the factions ability to problem solving late game.

Longer post coming later.
17 Dec 2020, 20:17 PM
#625
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

This feels like a changelog which is incomplete and lacks the buffs to accompany the heavy nerfs you are giving across the board.


It nerfs all the "OP" tools SU have (but reminder that they are not good enough to compete meta wise) but there's no real compensation buffs and the changes they receive seems to lack the direction they need to solve the factions ability to problem solving late game.


+1 to that.
This is starting to look like Brit 2.0, where the faction was completely crippled and disappeared from any kind of competitive play.
17 Dec 2020, 20:25 PM
#626
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2

This feels like a changelog which is incomplete and lacks the buffs to accompany the heavy nerfs you are giving across the board.


It nerfs all the "OP" tools SU have (but reminder that they are not good enough to compete meta wise) but there's no real compensation buffs and the changes they receive seems to lack the direction they need to solve the factions ability to problem solving late game.

Longer post coming later.


Soviets struggle at problem solving late game? Just no...

Soviets benefit the most from Osttruppen nerfs. 5men also got nerfed. Tbh though, I don't really get the conscript vet nerf because their combat strength isn't the issue. (sandbags and squad size are)
17 Dec 2020, 20:33 PM
#627
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 18:21 PMDharx

That's the problem.

T70 perfomance nerf honestly is barely feelable, it only cant wipe squads that easy now, but bleed and force them away just as good. Cons perfomance for a 240mp unit is completly fine in early game, they are alright in terms of combat perfomance vs both volks and grenadiers.

When axis get their upgrades, cons indeed do feel lacklaster, but again in case you cant\dont want to support them with either guards\shocks by that time, faster MR giving you an option to get your cons 7th upgrade. Sure you would have a window of disadvantage, but its considerably smaller now.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 18:21 PMDharx

Nobody ever payed for the upgrade at T3. It's expensive, there are other priorities like bringing in T4 and at T3 you don't even have enough muni to upgrade the squads anyway. Pay the fuel and MP jsut to ugprade one or two squads s incredibly inefficient at that timing.

Idk really, you wont have muni only if you spend it all on mines. Both axis factions, by the time of sov T3 are able to give LMGs\STGs to most of their units and even lay mines. How soviets wont have muni for 4 cons squads by that time.
But again its not the point. You've been given an option to get MR cheaper and faster then in live. By the time you will get T4 up and running, this 20 fuel and 100mp would mean little to nothing in a global picture anyway.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 18:21 PMDharx

The vet bonus being global doesn't matter. By the time you now get MR, every Cons squad instantly gets ugpraded anyway, you don't have any unupgraded untis running around, and most are about to hit vet 3 already, so there is little benefit. What matters about 7m upgrade is the increased damage output, which allows cons to directly engage Axis infantry, and the 7th model which makes the squads less likely to get wiped when biggest sources of damage become explosive. The 20% XP bonus is useful only for replacing lost squads.

So you want to say that by 6-7 minute mark (because this is pretty much the timing of new MR) most of your cons are vet3? Again, MR now buffs not only upgraded cons, but also cons with Svts\PPSH and penals. Before this MR was free, but completly useless in case you pick something which gave cons any weapons.

I dont understand why you are complaining about it, considering you will be able to face upgraded axis inf with 7th grade faster then before.
17 Dec 2020, 21:13 PM
#628
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1958


I dont understand why you are complaining about it, considering you will be able to face upgraded axis inf with 7th grade faster then before.


No, the 100/20 upgrade is in the live game. The only thing they did was eliminate the auto-unlock at T4 and tried to spin it by saying that they're giving us a choice. If they were wanting to make it better, they'd move it to being something that could be unlocked after T1 or T2 was built. As it is, it's a straight nerf.
17 Dec 2020, 21:19 PM
#629
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:13 PMGrumpy


No, the 100/20 upgrade is in the live game. The only thing they did was eliminate the auto-unlock at T4 and tried to spin it by saying that they're giving us a choice. If they were wanting to make it better, they'd move it to being something that could be unlocked after T1 or T2 was built. As it is, it's a straight nerf.

Incorrect.
The upgrade that's currently at T3 requires molotov and AT nades unlocked first.
17 Dec 2020, 21:57 PM
#630
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:19 PMKatitof

Incorrect.
The upgrade that's currently at T3 requires molotov and AT nades unlocked first.

well, gotta make people want the molitov upgrade somehow right? the performance of the molitov certainly doesnt create desire....
17 Dec 2020, 21:59 PM
#631
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


well, gotta make people want the molitov upgrade somehow right? the performance of the molitov certainly doesnt create desire....

I honestly don't understand why Soviet AT grenades and molotovs were designed this way. Molotov should be tweaked to be the same as the USF molotov, and the AT grenade and molotov should be bundle together into a cheaper package (more expensive than an individual upgrade but cheaper than both upgrades).
17 Dec 2020, 22:10 PM
#632
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:59 PMSpoof

I honestly don't understand why Soviet AT grenades and molotovs were designed this way. Molotov should be tweaked to be the same as the USF molotov, and the AT grenade and molotov should be bundle together into a cheaper package (more expensive than an individual upgrade but cheaper than both upgrades).

bundleing and increasing the price would actually be a nerf because the molitov, even at 10 fu and 80mp is not worth while. you compare to the lava nade that throws faster and further for only 10 mu more but almost a guarantee to get it off frontally even under mg fire tand its not hard to see why the molitov doesnt see use. 20mu to deny cover you practically have to stand in to throw and paying as much as spec ops infiltration nades AND paying for the privilege is a travesty. all bundeling will do is delay AT nades.

molitov should be cheaper and scale better with vet if its going to have a cost attatched to it. and you shpuld get resources back if when you use it if its bundeld with the AT nade because otherwise its dead weight.
17 Dec 2020, 22:11 PM
#633
avatar of luvnest
Strategist Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1094 | Subs: 20

The whole Mobilize Reserves ability has been butchered so many times over and the descriptions doens't really help anymore that I don't know what it stands for now.

Also I find the -10% accuracy nerf at vet3 quite drastic.
17 Dec 2020, 22:35 PM
#634
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 22:11 PMluvnest
The whole Mobilize Reserves ability has been butchered so many times over and the descriptions doens't really help anymore that I don't know what it stands for now.

Also I find the -10% accuracy nerf at vet3 quite drastic.

Mobilize reserves now requires T3 only
(in live it requires either T3/Mol/AT grenades or comes T4).
Cost: 100/20

Once unlocked Penal/Conscript squads gain 20% more veterancy.
Penal squad will now reinforce with 25 instead of 27

Unlocks "mobile reserves" for conscripts (7men)
(How difficult is to get different names for different abilities really?)

Increases squad size by 1.
Reduces model reinforce cost to 18 manpower.
-30% weapon cooldown, when unit in the cover.

In sort the upgrade probably went from wait until it unlocks with T4, to get it ASAP.
17 Dec 2020, 22:39 PM
#635
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 20:25 PMGiaA


Soviets struggle at problem solving late game? Just no...

Soviets benefit the most from Osttruppen nerfs. 5men also got nerfed. Tbh though, I don't really get the conscript vet nerf because their combat strength isn't the issue. (sandbags and squad size are)


I should clarify the ones they currently have right now, while not improving by much their midgame and nerfing their late game (which is fine but bring others things up in level as well).

Teamgames on linear maps against the heavy TDs.

-UKF/USF can field proper AT infantry.
PTRS are improved against mostly medium tanks in a defensive role.

-Both FF with Tulips/Jackson with turret + mobility in combination with their mediums (mobility buffs + smoke or UKF with Comets)
Right now RAM is getting butchered down. When it only needed the extreme crits removed and at most engine/heavy engine dmg on the T34. Hell i would go for a -1/-2s on the stun duration on deflect if they want to nerf it.
Su85/Su76 is your answer against vehicles and they both suck against those (because the Ele/JT are the proper hardcounter to them).
17 Dec 2020, 22:44 PM
#636
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 609

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:59 PMSpoof

I honestly don't understand why Soviet AT grenades and molotovs were designed this way. Molotov should be tweaked to be the same as the USF molotov, and the AT grenade and molotov should be bundle together into a cheaper package (more expensive than an individual upgrade but cheaper than both upgrades).


An upgrade that boosts both AT and AI is poor design.
17 Dec 2020, 22:49 PM
#637
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

i dont really get the mobilize changes frankly. soviet are supposed to tech to t4 every game, so it be included was a nice bonus that brought soviet closer to inline with other factions whom all at this point get SOMETHING with a full tech. t3 isnt meant to, nor can it, stand on its own even with the upgrade. the upgrade is indeed a good looking upgrade, which is nice but now the first t34 which already comes later than p4s will come later still

soviet are still set up to crutch on the t70, even if that crutch is worse now because they dont get to benefit from a "congrats on building your first building, have everything you need for the rest of the game now" style mainline infantry

breaking up the ability further but making them passive with tech might be the best route. give the vet bonus at t3 to help make up for the lost ground of not having a weapon upgrade, make the t4 bonus the reinforcment and keep the 7 man as it is now, or even a t3 bonus if the player techs both at nades and molitovs- maybe increase the price a bit in t3 and lower it back at t4 if 7 men start flooding the field but imo cons need something given to them at t3 instead of just taking away their tools and again while the mobilize upgrade looks great, it effectivly delays t4 as a result. not an issue for the su85 and katy, but the t34 - as the undeniable worst medium armoud cant really afford to be coming even later.

unless we want to look at lowering the t34 price a bit to make skipping the upgrade to maybe get the t34 out at the same time as a p4 might be an option...

frankly if both paths of a choice are not equally attractive then its not adding a choice, its adding a cost.
17 Dec 2020, 22:52 PM
#638
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 22:44 PMArray


An upgrade that boosts both AT and AI is poor design.

not really... weapon racks for both factions that have them unlocks both AT and AI.
if the packages onbly grant things to cons, as it does, then it doesnt matter what it adds frankly, as long as the price is right. could call it the "arming our troops for battle" bundle and it makes perfect sense design wise, assuming cons were viable without the upgrades for a time and that the upgrade is worth the cost. it would be no different than an actual tech building that gives these things, only its a sidegrade
17 Dec 2020, 22:53 PM
#639
avatar of luvnest
Strategist Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1094 | Subs: 20

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 22:35 PMVipper

Mobilize reserves now requires T3 only
(in live it requires either T3/Mol/AT grenades or comes T4).
Cost: 100/20

Once unlocked Penal/Conscript squads gain 20% more veterancy.
Penal squad will now reinforce with 25 instead of 27

Unlocks "mobile reserves" for conscripts (7men)
(How difficult is to get different names for different abilities really?)

Increases squad size by 1.
Reduces model reinforce cost to 18 manpower.
-30% weapon cooldown, when unit in the cover.

In sort the upgrade probably went from wait until it unlocks with T4, to get it ASAP.


Thanks! Does it really improve the cooldown in cover though? I can roughly remember that this was reverted
17 Dec 2020, 22:55 PM
#640
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 22:53 PMluvnest


Thanks! Does it really improve the cooldown in cover though? I can roughly remember that this was reverted

Close enough:
"Mobilize Reserve reinforce reduction from 3 to 2; changes reinforce cost from 17 to 18
Reload cover bonus (30%)from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed."

The CD bonus which is superior to reload remains.
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Rosbone: It is really hard to tell people to buy the DLC with feeling like they are throwing their money down the toilet for a nearly dead game. But Big Tonks!!! Oh well, not my problem.
Today, 18:12 PM
Rosbone: No 4v4 maps, busted menus 2 years after release, still have not fixed janky sounds people have complained about for over 2 years, etc etc.
Today, 18:10 PM
Rosbone: And the skirmish menus are still at a BETA level. Just the largest game play mode completely ignored... again.
Today, 18:09 PM
Willy Pete: Oh wtf. Yeah the crossing remake was in the 2v2 demo. No more 3s and 4s is a bummer tho
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Willy Pete: Are the maps really locked behind dlc? Surely they must be in the regular update
Today, 15:22 PM
Rosbone: I would like to join in celebration with the 9% of Coh3 MP players who are getting ALL of the new maps. Woohoo! #3Tards
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OKSpitfire: I hope that at least one of heavies is a like-for-like reskin of the coh 2 ISU-152. I miss that thing.
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Rosbone: Everyone ready for some deep penetration :snfPeter:
Last Thursday, 17:13 PM
Lady Xenarra: I'm sure the ppl who defended it as balanced for Allies will be screaming like they got scaled with boiling water, in COH3. How the tables turn.
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Willy Pete: I think it was nuts with any engine damage. Especially on superheavies
Last Thursday, 07:03 AM
aerafield: Personally I think without the ram ability, it's worse than loiters for example
Last Thursday, 00:09 AM
Willy Pete: It combined well with most slowing abilities, not just ram stuns
Last Wednesday, 23:36 PM
Willy Pete: Only??? I think not being able to shoot it down and the ramp up effect also had something to do with it
Last Wednesday, 23:34 PM
Willy Pete: Really
Last Wednesday, 23:30 PM
aerafield: AT overwatch was broken only because it came with the faction of T34 ramming
Last Wednesday, 22:29 PM
Willy Pete: Love to see Relic really learning from their past mistakes. Let's bring back the dumbest ability in coh2, and charge money for it
Last Wednesday, 20:34 PM
Willy Pete: New DAK commander will have AT overwatch as alternate choice to elefant
Last Wednesday, 20:33 PM
aaa: Funy thing new players dont know that. And are trying to compete vs hacks
Last Wednesday, 10:33 AM
aaa: Online gaming is trash in general, not just coh. On high level there are all cheats in most games
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aaa: 2 cheaters in 3 days. MH and DH
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aerafield: I am a simple man, I build Humvees with Pathfinders and Missile Launchers inside, I am happy
18 Feb 2025, 20:57 PM
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18 Feb 2025, 20:42 PM
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18 Feb 2025, 15:40 PM
adamírcz: Might be onto somethin here, combine side armour existing, maps where flanking is a viable option, and hopefully also heavies actually being less manouverable than mediums (lookin at you coh2), and it might be fun gameplay
17 Feb 2025, 13:39 PM
Willy Pete: Shouldn't coh3 heavies actually have insane front armor values? The glory days of 400+ Kt armor wouldn't be as bad when side armor is a thing. Not to say its a good idea lol
14 Feb 2025, 23:14 PM
aerafield: But then again, maybe CoH3 superheavies should actually have insane armor values because the whole game is designed for the clumsy & inept anyway :snfPeter:
14 Feb 2025, 23:04 PM
aerafield: It's like you have to coordinate an entire orchestra of abilities and the correct units, meanwhile your opponent just clicks his 1 superheavy tank occasionally...
14 Feb 2025, 23:01 PM
aerafield: the giga frontal armor also made these units too oppressive in average or low ELO games
14 Feb 2025, 22:59 PM
aerafield: Massive HP pool but reasonable amount of armor is way healthier design
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
aerafield: Say what you want, but the titanium frontal armor design of coh2 superheavies was bullshit. Too many bad players not getting punished for their bad micro because penetration RNG carries them
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM
Willy Pete: Also the attack ground with the pak40 looked perfect, that Pershing should be dead
14 Feb 2025, 19:18 PM
Willy Pete: Ahh just saw the other one that died. Some bad rng I think but there was an AT gun at med range for a chunk of that fight
14 Feb 2025, 19:14 PM
Willy Pete: Which KT? I saw one got almost deleted but it also showed its side to a hellcat AND the m5. I think the player even admitted he got lucky
14 Feb 2025, 19:10 PM
Lady Xenarra: I understand that the devs want to sell the Allied part of the DLC, but the KT got swiss cheesed like a COH2 bunker on treads :S
14 Feb 2025, 15:16 PM
SupremeStefan: They should make dlc separataly for axis and alies
14 Feb 2025, 10:28 AM
SupremeStefan: 25$ is actually a ok price for 40 abilites = 8 commanders = 4 battlegroups. But problem is that it comes in bundle
14 Feb 2025, 10:24 AM
Willy Pete: Have they shown the actual trees yet for the new commanders? Skimmed through the deep dive today, didnt see em
13 Feb 2025, 22:29 PM
Rosbone: Big Tonk boners incoming :hansGASM:
13 Feb 2025, 17:38 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
12 Feb 2025, 14:57 PM
Lone-Wolf: Hi guys. Error code -4. Any fixes?
08 Feb 2025, 17:09 PM
donofsandiego: Probably not
07 Feb 2025, 16:57 PM
SkYisTheLimiT_CoH: any coh2.org admin there ?
07 Feb 2025, 12:43 PM
Lady Xenarra: Ever the contrarian, aerafield.
07 Feb 2025, 11:59 AM
aerafield: I havent seen the new units in action yet (whose BGs will not be purchased by too many people as they are pretty expensive I recon), but I can say with 100% confidence that the Pershing needs a buff
07 Feb 2025, 02:31 AM
Lady Xenarra: I would think lots more players would come/return since there's so many iconic units being added in the new BGs. I just don't want to hear another 8+ yrs of Pershing need buff complaints
06 Feb 2025, 23:22 PM
adamírcz: If I had my supply of copium, Id say they might at least get enough money to not have to wait 5 months with problems that should be a matter of bi-weekly hotfix
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM
adamírcz: I mean, its overpriced,
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM
Rosbone: Will it help or hurt the current player base is the real question. Should add more players, but may drive many away.
06 Feb 2025, 19:17 PM
Rosbone: Yes you too can play with a persdhing for the low price of $24.99 USD. Or be the poor schlub who gets his rectum reconfigured who doesnt have the latest pay to win stuffs.
06 Feb 2025, 19:16 PM
donofsandiego: persdhing in coh 3? 😳
06 Feb 2025, 18:42 PM
Rosbone: @aerafield Ahhh, I think I made a pershing like twice in my life since that commander is pretty bad in 4s.
05 Feb 2025, 23:20 PM
aerafield: @Rosbone coh2 pershing has the same ability so, whatever. Though it's probably gonna be a 30 seconds ability to make it super broken pay to win, then 2 months later it will get "hotfixed" into a skillshot like coh2 pershing
05 Feb 2025, 22:00 PM
Rosbone: How do we feel about Pershing shooting thru multiple buildings?
05 Feb 2025, 19:43 PM
Rosbone: I am just happy Relic was smart enough to put this out now because the community was falling asleep waiting 3 months between patches. And a new/old map was shown :banana:
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aerafield: Not even the trailer can hide the trash sound effects
05 Feb 2025, 18:46 PM
Lady Xenarra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSvwH2mXje8 Well this should result in 'interesting' reactions... :rofl:
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