[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

Mod changes for Ostheer in the most recent update of the mod: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/288466#Comment_288466

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Rip Osttruppen, without a passive buff they are now dead, they need way more micro than other units, so don't punish good player caring them into late-game.

E.g.

1. Price up to 220. 35sec ability.

2. Remove LMG42 upgrade. Instead:
- T1 (build): 40 mun 2*Panzerbüchsen (needs 1 weapon-slot, can't be dropped = fixes missing blue-print-problem) [less damage as PTRS but option to shoot a AT-grenade (Granatbüchse) dealing some extra damage]
- T2 (tech): 30 mun 1*SVT + 1*Lee-Enfield as "Beutewaffe" (need 1 weapon-slot, can't be dropped adding some more DPS)

3. Give them 2 weapon-slots with T4.

4. With Vet3 they get an out-of-cover-bonus, -0,9 damage for 3-5sec. So they don't get fuked as quick by arty.


-> less spam, filling new interesting role, option to increase their power by stealing weapons, passive boost if you care them.



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All over, it is time to move HMG42 back to T1, for maybe push Grens into HQ. Grens should get non-doc shock-grendes to be used more effective without HMG.

Rip Osttruppen, without passive buff they are now dead

What passive buff do you mean?

they need way more micro than other units

Way more micro as in A-move and put them behind cover as much as possible?

What passive buff do you mean?

I have rewritten my text. :/ now it is finished.

Way more micro as in A-move and put them behind cover as much as possible?

That isn't how game works. Osttruppen become usless after enemy doesn't push into them. Best thing you can do versus Osttruppen is to force them to attack you -> gg (+ hoping to fuk PnzGrens ^^)


Simply make them more special, less spam-trash. Seeing them in combo with Grens would be nice to see, instead of HMG combo.

Rip Osttruppen, without a passive buff they are now dead, they need way more micro than other units, so don't punish good player caring them into late-game.

E.g.

1. Price up to 220. 35sec ability.

2. Remove LMG42 upgrade. Instead:
- T1 (build): 40 mun 2*Panzerbüchsen (needs 1 weapon-slot, can't be dropped = fixes missing blue-print-problem) [less damage as PTRS but option to shoot a AT-grenade (Granatbüchse) dealing some extra damage]
- T2 (tech): 30 mun 1*SVT + 1*Lee-Enfield as "Beutewaffe" (need 1 weapon-slot, can't be dropped adding some more DPS)

3. Give them 2 weapon-slots with T4.

4. With Vet3 they get an out-of-cover-bonus, -0,9 damage for 3-5sec. So they don't get fuked as quick by arty.


-> less spam, filling new interesting role, option to increase their power by stealing weapons, passive boost if you care them.



------

All over, it is time to move HMG42 back to T1, for maybe push Grens into HQ. Grens should get non-doc shock-grendes to be used more effective without HMG.

why not just make osttruppen OSTheer version of cons? Buff their standard accuracy to be the same as their in cover Accuracy and raise their cost to 240.

That isn't how game works. Osttruppen become usless after enemy doesn't push into them. Best thing you can do versus Osttruppen is to force them to attack you -> gg (+ hoping to fuk PnzGrens ^^)


Simply make them more special, less spam-trash. Seeing them in combo with Grens would be nice to see, instead of HMG combo.

ostroppen are supposed to be part of an army composition not the entire thing. they are there for bodies to give squishy ost some meat and give expensive men ost something that stems the bleed. they are not supposed to be pushing they are SUPPOSED to be defending. combined arms is the intended design, lack of it is the problem.

ostroppen are supposed to be part of an army composition not the entire thing. they are there for bodies to give squishy ost some meat and give expensive men ost something that stems the bleed. they are not supposed to be pushing they are SUPPOSED to be defending. combined arms is the intended design, lack of it is the problem.

Why would you want to mix up ostroopens with grenadiers to begin with?

Osttroopens, even in their meme release state, were always supposed to be spammable inf which replaces grenadiers, the only difference was that both MG42\Grens came from T1 back in the day, thefore skips and rushes werent the option.

They became the problem, when ppl realised that skipping T1 pays off more in a long run, then getting it + on top of that MG42 in HQ just reinforces this, because its the single unit which objectively holds whole ost early game together.

Why would you want to mix up ostroopens with grenadiers to begin with?

Osttroopens, even in their meme release state, were always supposed to be spammable inf which replaces grenadiers, the only difference was that both MG42\Grens came from T1 back in the day, thefore skips and rushes werent the option.

They became the problem, when ppl realised that skipping T1 pays off more in a long run, then getting it + on top of that MG42 in HQ just reinforces this, because its the single unit which objectively holds whole ost early game together.

Ostroppen in their release were NOT supposed to replace grens. Ostroppen at release could not cap points and were something like 400% worse when outside of cover. They were NEVER meant to replace grens but instead give manpower effecient defenses which ost struggled with.

At first glance most changes correction seem to be in the right direction. Some notes:

Bunkers

Command Bunker no longer mutually exclusive with Medical Bunker

This change might end up being too strong. Requires testing.

Osttruppen

The late game potential of these unit is bad since in late game the drop like flies to small arms fire especially in large modes.

In addition lmg in 6 men is not generally a good idea.

Suggestion: Replace the Lmg upgrade with an upgrade that reduce base target size 1 and allows merge.

Ostruppen reserves should also be look at since they seem up, maybe replace have them enter the filed with PTRs/PB.

Fair changes in general.

Command bunker change looks fairly good (pak43 a little more viable) though i still think the bunker build cost should be reduced to 50mp and push the differential towards either of the upgrades.


+1 on doing something with Osstruppen reservers

Ostroppen in their release were NOT supposed to replace grens. Ostroppen at release could not cap points and were something like 400% worse when outside of cover. They were NEVER meant to replace grens but instead give manpower effecient defenses which ost struggled with.

But they also cost like half their current cost. While i can't remember exactly how they behaved for 1v1, they were stupid in combination with Assault Grens in team games.

They were never "meant" but they STILL replaced Gren builds.

I like the command bunker change. Another wonderful time to suggest MG bunkers should require popcap

1. Brummber
You nerf scott and t70 like that. Nerf brummbar like this?

It just walk into the atgs and destroy em with one shot or two.
Nerf its armor. Nerf its damage. Add target number limit on this, not on t70.
Nerf its range to 35 like you did on 105 bulldozer which has slower shell, narrow aoe, lower armor.

1. Brummber
You nerf scott and t70 like that. Nerf brummbar like this?

It just walk into the atgs and destroy em with one shot or two.
Nerf its armor. Nerf its damage. Add target number limit on this, not on t70.
Nerf its range to 35 like you did on 105 bulldozer which has slower shell, narrow aoe, lower armor.

All of this has been done to the Brummbar many patches ago. Keep in mind that it fights comparatively more durable squads and fortifications.


The referred units are wildly different too.

ostroppen are supposed to be part of an army composition not the entire thing. they are there for bodies to give squishy ost some meat and give expensive men ost something that stems the bleed. they are not supposed to be pushing they are SUPPOSED to be defending. combined arms is the intended design, lack of it is the problem.

And that is what I want. But removing everything Osttruppen were good for (fast spam) there is nothing good. Faust nerf is the death, if they don't get some buffs.

1. Brummber
You nerf scott and t70 like that. Nerf brummbar like this?

It is a Brummbär buff, not a nerf.

Ostroppen in their release were NOT supposed to replace grens. Ostroppen at release could not cap points and were something like 400% worse when outside of cover. They were NEVER meant to replace grens but instead give manpower effecient defenses which ost struggled with.

The issue with this sort of design is that you really only have so much space in your army for infantry squads. You can't really do anything special with one or two Ostruppen and one or two Grenadiers, at least in my mind.

They sort of fulfil your desired role right now, in any case. They synergise in the way you want with Panzergrenadiers, with Ostruppen being a wall for the enemy to break upon, and Pgrens being able to probe weakness and actually fight enemy squads. Grenadiers are simply not suited to that sort of task, which is why they are not used along with Ostruppen.

Pgren/Ostruppen synergy is arguably TOO good, and if you were to try and make Ostruppen/Grenadier synergy better, you would merely be making Pgren/Ostruppen synergy better at the same time, and Pgrens will always be superior in this role. The only way you'd make Grens attractive alongside Ostruppen is by taking away their Faust, I think, but by doing so you will basically make them worthless.

I like the command bunker change. Another wonderful time to suggest MG bunkers should require popcap

As much as I understand the suggestion, I'm not entirely sure I can agree with it. MG bunkers are very strong in some scenarios, but they're quite an investment for a stationary and quite vulnerable defensive structure. I think they'd be pushed out of usability were they to get a population cost, you'd be far better just using an actual MG in their place (If they had a meaningful cost, if they don't then what's the point of the change?)

Are they still considered too good? I thought the semi-recent vision nerfs to them brought them a little more into line. How are Fighting Positions considered, by comparison? I realise they're vulnerable to small arms, but they do provide quite nice utility (with RE grenades) and are featured in an army that isn't quite so reliant on "static" play. (And I don't think their MG is notably worse, is it?)

EDIT: I know it's inelegant, but if spamming MG bunkers (in Teamgames, i expect) is considered an issue, would a hard cap on the number one may possess at a single time be a better balancing method? I think in such a case you might need the ability to scuttle them.