[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback
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11 Jan 2021, 19:22 PM
#661
Posts: 1289
The only ones that should even have them are conscripts. And maybe sections cuz royal engineers come out a while later. Other then that rear echelons pio,s and sturms should have them, no other main lines.
11 Jan 2021, 20:16 PM
#662
Posts: 5279
The only ones that should even have them are conscripts. And maybe sections cuz royal engineers come out a while later. Other then that rear echelons pio,s and sturms should have them, no other main lines.
I too feel this way. Ostroppen as well though as their role is similar to that of cons and they are dependent on cover.
And let's give RE some proper bags please....
Maybe a change to tank traps so they are more difficult to destroy and take longer to throw up as consequence. But let sweeper engies dismantle em
#stalinwept
11 Jan 2021, 21:07 PM
#663
Posts: 1289
I too feel this way. Ostroppen as well though as their role is similar to that of cons and they are dependent on cover.
And let's give RE some proper bags please....
Maybe a change to tank traps so they are more difficult to destroy and take longer to throw up as consequence. But let sweeper engies dismantle em
Yeah both make sense.
11 Jan 2021, 21:15 PM
#664
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
In your opinion are grenadier the cheapest infatry or not?
If they are I am all ear for the arguments, if they are not we agree.
They are the cheapest stock main line infantry and the hardest to use effectively outside of doctrinal abilities. Been the cheapest doesn't meant it's good by default, same that assuming that spamming Grenadiers only as other faction do on their opening should be effective at all.
Can't you just be honest and admit that the WC2019 argument was bad? For someone who worries so much about precision, it doesn't make your argument worst for admitting it.
So.... opening that is not optimal, never was and never is going to be, because faction doesn't operate like that is a not viable option at competitive level?
That's shocking news!
Said no one.
Grenspam never was and never will be viable strat.
I have no idea why do you cling to it like a flex tape to a crack.
Are you trying to prove some point by repeating how BO that never was meant to work and is stupid idea above rank 500 is not working?
Only a Sith deals with absolutes. Specially for a 7/8 year old game. Gren spam WAS a thing. Which will probable never return unless something weird is done to G43 package.
For those talking about sandbags, it's more likely that the direction the mod team will take is to nerf sandbag spam rather than making it easier and more available.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
11 Jan 2021, 21:47 PM
#665
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
They are the cheapest stock main line infantry and the hardest to use effectively outside of doctrinal abilities. Been the cheapest doesn't meant it's good by default, same that assuming that spamming Grenadiers only as other faction do on their opening should be effective at all.
Can't you just be honest and admit that the WC2019 argument was bad? For someone who worries so much about precision, it doesn't make your argument worst for admitting it.
How are the cheapest mainline infatry? they cost 240 which is the same as conscripts.
To actually get grenadier one has to build a T1 first.
So no I do not see how they are cheapest infantry.
11 Jan 2021, 22:05 PM
#666
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
How are the cheapest mainline infatry? they cost 240 which is the same as conscripts.
To actually get grenadier one has to build a T1 first.
So no I do not see how they are cheapest infantry.
That Cons cost 240mp as well, doesn't mean that it doesn't make them the cheapest as well. They just share that position.
And once you start to include tech into the discussion, it has been brought up before how this mud the discussion because now we enter a different realm on which you can't just compare units in isolation rather than builds.
Since it seems you don't want to acknowledge my previous point and the direction this discussion goes, i'll cut it here. Have a good day.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
11 Jan 2021, 22:06 PM
#667
Posts: 1515
They are the cheapest stock main line infantry and the hardest to use effectively outside of doctrinal abilities. Been the cheapest doesn't meant it's good by default, same that assuming that spamming Grenadiers only as other faction do on their opening should be effective at all.
Can't you just be honest and admit that the WC2019 argument was bad? For someone who worries so much about precision, it doesn't make your argument worst for admitting it.
Only a Sith deals with absolutes. Specially for a 7/8 year old game. Gren spam WAS a thing. Which will probable never return unless something weird is done to G43 package.
For those talking about sandbags, it's more likely that the direction the mod team will take is to nerf sandbag spam rather than making it easier and more available.
Saying that only a Sith deals in absolutes is by itself, an absolute... thus you are a Sith.
To be honest. Grens are fine. For 240 MP you get a good unit that scales well. Won't win engagements by itself vs 280/270 MP infantry, but it doesn't have to. Werfers are there to help.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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11 Jan 2021, 22:33 PM
#668
Posts: 789
Ost has 2 problems.
1) Grenadiers and and the mg42 do not synergize well. If your MG is being flanked, you want close range DPS to make the flanking unit back off.
2) Grenadiers cannot build sandbags. This means that you take a lot more damage while defending, causing more retreats and more bleed
The second problem could be fixed by building more pioneers, but because they have SMGs they cannot provide combat value without charging and bleeding a lot. This is even worse because their reinforce cost is 20mp and their near dps is low, only the amount of a bolt rifle at near.
1) Grenadiers and and the mg42 do not synergize well. If your MG is being flanked, you want close range DPS to make the flanking unit back off.
2) Grenadiers cannot build sandbags. This means that you take a lot more damage while defending, causing more retreats and more bleed
The second problem could be fixed by building more pioneers, but because they have SMGs they cannot provide combat value without charging and bleeding a lot. This is even worse because their reinforce cost is 20mp and their near dps is low, only the amount of a bolt rifle at near.
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
11 Jan 2021, 22:36 PM
#669
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That Cons cost 240mp as well, doesn't mean that it doesn't make them the cheapest as well. They just share that position.
And once you start to include tech into the discussion, it has been brought up before how this mud the discussion because now we enter a different realm on which you can't just compare units in isolation rather than builds.
Since it seems you don't want to acknowledge my previous point and the direction this discussion goes, i'll cut it here. Have a good day.
Cheapest infatry are conscripts and Grenadiers that sum it up for me.
Have a good couple of days.
11 Jan 2021, 22:47 PM
#670
Posts: 789
Why do people keep arguing about units in vaccum?
Example:
Ostheer is underperforming.
User 1: but they have (some unit)!
User 2: no they don’t!
User 1: yes they do!
Et cetera.
Wether they have (some unit) is objectively meaningless, as having (some unit) is obviously not helping them as they are under performing.
Instead, can we try and come up with solutions and then analyze those to see wether or not they fix the problem at hand?
Example:
Ostheer is underperforming.
User 1: but they have (some unit)!
User 2: no they don’t!
User 1: yes they do!
Et cetera.
Wether they have (some unit) is objectively meaningless, as having (some unit) is obviously not helping them as they are under performing.
Instead, can we try and come up with solutions and then analyze those to see wether or not they fix the problem at hand?
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
11 Jan 2021, 23:11 PM
#671
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Cheapest infatry are conscripts and Grenadiers that sum it up for me.
Context matters.
Saying that only a Sith deals in absolutes is by itself, an absolute... thus you are a Sith.
Would you expect anything else from the mods? We embrace both the light and the darkness. That's the only way to remain sane.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
12 Jan 2021, 01:40 AM
#672
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
Would you expect anything else from the mods? We embrace both the light and the darkness. That's the only way to remain sane.
I would have just said "Don't try it." myself
12 Jan 2021, 07:57 AM
#673
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Only a Sith deals with absolutes. Specially for a 7/8 year old game. Gren spam WAS a thing. Which will probable never return unless something weird is done to G43 package.
It was indeed, but every single time there was a quality cheeze attached to it.
March deployment, sure gren spam was perfectly valid and no wonder, they rolled even guards with impunity and G43.
Same for current VSL.
Any other time I remember there always was HMG or sniper or turbomortar behind it, so not exactly grenspam.
Gren spam was valid option pretty much only at times when grens were confirmed to be OP and it all returned to normal following patch anyway.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
12 Jan 2021, 09:35 AM
#674
Posts: 322
How about we " remake " Ostheer bunker?
Cost 0 MP to build like a trench but if you want to upgrade it will cost 150 MP + 60 Muni for whatever you want?
When jump into those bunker it will lower the range and smaller arc of fire for infantry inside there?
Just a suggestion, I know it's not bright but then tbh I don't think we ever see Grenadier build bunker in 1vs1 / 2vs2 in front line.
I understand dev team don't like mainline infantry to spam sandbags but it's in the core design of Infantry Section + Conscript + Volksgrenadier now (Meaning 3 out of 5 factions).
USF Rifleman might not able to build sandbags but they make up for their early game with good firepower compare to Grenadier weak until they get 60 muni to get their LMG42.
Trying to get some ideals here that's all
Cost 0 MP to build like a trench but if you want to upgrade it will cost 150 MP + 60 Muni for whatever you want?
When jump into those bunker it will lower the range and smaller arc of fire for infantry inside there?
Just a suggestion, I know it's not bright but then tbh I don't think we ever see Grenadier build bunker in 1vs1 / 2vs2 in front line.
I understand dev team don't like mainline infantry to spam sandbags but it's in the core design of Infantry Section + Conscript + Volksgrenadier now (Meaning 3 out of 5 factions).
USF Rifleman might not able to build sandbags but they make up for their early game with good firepower compare to Grenadier weak until they get 60 muni to get their LMG42.
Trying to get some ideals here that's all
12 Jan 2021, 11:14 AM
#675
Posts: 1794
Ost has 2 problems.
1) Grenadiers and and the mg42 do not synergize well. If your MG is being flanked, you want close range DPS to make the flanking unit back off.
2) Grenadiers cannot build sandbags. This means that you take a lot more damage while defending, causing more retreats and more bleed
The second problem could be fixed by building more pioneers, but because they have SMGs they cannot provide combat value without charging and bleeding a lot. This is even worse because their reinforce cost is 20mp and their near dps is low, only the amount of a bolt rifle at near.
5 men grens with g43 would be a solution or a solid option to choose if you want to play this style.
Do not get the reasoning for gutting nerfs?
Maybe it's too strong for top 1v1, but the other modes and player levels are short changed without any compensation
12 Jan 2021, 11:21 AM
#676
Posts: 563
How about we " remake " Ostheer bunker?
Cost 0 MP to build like a trench but if you want to upgrade it will cost 150 MP + 60 Muni for whatever you want?
When jump into those bunker it will lower the range and smaller arc of fire for infantry inside there?
Just a suggestion, I know it's not bright but then tbh I don't think we ever see Grenadier build bunker in 1vs1 / 2vs2 in front line.
I understand dev team don't like mainline infantry to spam sandbags but it's in the core design of Infantry Section + Conscript + Volksgrenadier now (Meaning 3 out of 5 factions).
USF Rifleman might not able to build sandbags but they make up for their early game with good firepower compare to Grenadier weak until they get 60 muni to get their LMG42.
Trying to get some ideals here that's all
O mp bunker would perhaps spamming them worse as one could just throw them left and right and upgrade when resources are on hand.
"Pain is almost euphoric sam!"
12 Jan 2021, 12:03 PM
#677
Posts: 1273
Yeah, I'd spam 0 MP bunker everywhere, at every hotspot and retreat path just to mess up infantry and vehicle pathfinding. Not a great plan.
12 Jan 2021, 12:11 PM
#678
Posts: 322
O mp bunker would perhaps spamming them worse as one could just throw them left and right and upgrade when resources are on hand.
Yeah kinda true, not a good ideal I guess....
Maybe just let Grenadier be able to build sandbags but slower compare to pio building then (Or maybe trench?)
12 Jan 2021, 12:24 PM
#679
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah kinda true, not a good ideal I guess....
Maybe just let Grenadier be able to build sandbags but slower compare to pio building then (Or maybe trench?)
bunker could have a price from 25-50 MP
12 Jan 2021, 12:29 PM
#680
Posts: 1515
bunker could have a price from 25-50 MP
That's somehow not spammable? Wow, I won't build 30 of them but 15...
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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