[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

One thing that would help bring G43 Grens back into the meta if the upgrade replaced their rifle grenades with a model 24 grenade similar to what Pfus get it would be a simple change, but would give g43 grens a new dynamic

Maybe grenadiers could be given stun grenades as default?

This would help them protect MGs by stunning flanking squads and giving the mg time to re position.


Elite troops could then be given an ability for it to use munitions on, which it lacks currently. It can’t be too powerful, so maybe the light artillery barrage

One thing that would help bring G43 Grens back into the meta if the upgrade replaced their rifle grenades with a model 24 grenade similar to what Pfus get it would be a simple change, but would give g43 grens a new dynamic

I was thinking this too lately, it'd be cool and it better fits their new close range focus.

Maybe grenadiers could be given stun grenades as default?

This would help them protect MGs by stunning flanking squads and giving the mg time to re position.

That is something I propose for years now... xD

The reason that Osttroopen/Assgrens are meta is because Grens are the only mainline infantry that cannot be build from the headquarter. On multiple maps this allows the allies to cap vital points/buildings. This forces you to attack with the defencive oriented grens. Instead of buffing the grens you should consider making them buildable from the HQ again (and the MG back to T1).

Also, the 5 man Grens are crutch that needs to go. It overshadows the other commanders (on maps where you don’t need to rush buildings)

That is a good point. Grenadiers might not be inherently weak, but they might be disadvantaged by their arrival time, and against Riflemen and Sections this could be hurting them. I'd be all for swapping them and the HMG, and moving Panzergrenadiers back to T2 and maybe boosting them slightly. My concern with that is that Conscripts will have a tougher time with Grenadiers arriving more quickly, and the Soviet faction is already in a precarious position.

So far:
- Sniper Change: really good one!
- Werfer Change: feels good, but i am not sure, if this will have any impact on this game
- Brummbär: also ok
- the rest: idk, seems like nothing will change

Maybe some new ideas:
- Ass Grens: USF cry about the early push potencial this unit gives a Wehrmacht player in 1s or 2s, easily rushing into LVs or Pgrens. Me, as a main Ostherr Player, would agree! Why? Because i think that Wehrmacht has enough early push potencial with Osttroops or doubel MG42+Pio Combos into Pgrens. How about we turn this Unit into a Mid/Late game ability fpr Ostherr Players to react to enemy infantry builds? I have the idea to transform the Assgrens unit into a MP40 Package + 1 extra man (like the veteran squadleader but without the aura) for Grenadiers: 60- to maybe 70 ammo and no rifle nade avaiable. I think this could really spice up Mid/Late game grens and give you a choice rather than simply spamm infantry.

- Stormtroopers: maybe just make them worth. I mean, 340 MP for this BS Unit? Set them to 300 MP or buff the dps (to point out!: i don´t want German Commandos, just a Unit wich is a bit elite)

The reason that Osttroopen/Assgrens are meta is because Grens are the only mainline infantry that cannot be build from the headquarter. On multiple maps this allows the allies to cap vital points/buildings. This forces you to attack with the defencive oriented grens. Instead of buffing the grens you should consider making them buildable from the HQ again (and the MG back to T1).

Also, the 5 man Grens are crutch that needs to go. It overshadows the other commanders (on maps where you don’t need to rush buildings)

This is going to be a huge nerf for Ostheer.

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Isn't possible to tied the Pioneer increased vision to T1? So it gives more insensitive to build T1 early game and if you decide to go ostruppen to support your HMG42 then you don't have this advantage until T1 is built.

The reason that Osttroopen/Assgrens are meta is because Grens are the only mainline infantry that cannot be build from the headquarter. On multiple maps this allows the allies to cap vital points/buildings. This forces you to attack with the defencive oriented grens. Instead of buffing the grens you should consider making them buildable from the HQ again (and the MG back to T1).

Also, the 5 man Grens are crutch that needs to go. It overshadows the other commanders (on maps where you don’t need to rush buildings)

That's an interesting idea but I think Grens would need to be reworked a bit for that to work. Here's my suggestion:


Grenadiers swap places with HMG42

Squad size increased from 4 to 5

Gren Kar98k damage reduced from 16 to 14

Squad cost increased from 240 to 280

Vet1 medkits now Free

Veteran Squad leader upgrade replaced with normal G43 upgrade

this would help LMG42 and G43 upgrade make a come back, and reduce the need for Osttruppenn and Assgren.

The HMG42 should definitely go back to the T1 infantry company building, add another 20 MP to its cost while you're at it. Put the Grens in T0.

Ostheer
Tech issues
There seem to be some timing issues with certain units and an inconsistent in costs. With the patch system only T2 has a fuel cost.

Suggestions:
Fuel cost of T2 removed building can be build without BP1. New tech required for access to 222 and 251 after BP1 is build. This change can help delay the timing of FHT and 222.

"All out war" icon move to HQ more player friendly. "All out war" now unlock by BP3 not T4. Reasons, slight buff, consistency since most things are unlocked by BP, diversity in buildings.

Early game
Many player avoid grenadier builds and use alternatives since it seems the faction has a small early presense since pio has to build T1 before mainline becomes available. Many people have suggested buff to grenadiers.

Imo buff the grenadier is not a step in right direction since, leads to power creep, they already have been buffed, there 3 version of them (vanilla,5men,g43) complicating the problem, VG are not doing great either. The problem seem to have more to do with allied infatry than with grenadier particularly.

Suggestions:
There are number of step that can be taken for soft buffing Ostheer early game and one of them or a combination of them can be used:

1) Replace staring pio with grenadier.

The change will allow Ostheer to defend important buildings/position since the will be able to reach the at similar times as enemy infatry.

2) Swap grenadier with HMG from T0 and T1.

3) Increase the power level of pioneer.
Pioneer now cost 220-230 but comes with 5 entities. This can solve the issue of grenadier being overrun by earlier infatry since the pioneer will be able to defend them.

4) Allow a early offensive play by giving access to either 221 or 250. Both vehicles would need some changes. 221 should become more durable less lethal suitable for flanking hmg, chasing sniper, countering micro light. 250 could have the power level reduced to be closer to m3 while losing the hull-down/reinforcement utility.

T0

pioneer
Although the change in received accuracy is good it will probably make not allot of difference since reaching vet3 is an issue. Move the all of some of the received accuracy to vet 2 and the vet 2 accuracy to vet 3.

Improve the medic so that it no longer locks units into place and make the ability scale with veterancy so that cost is reduced. Maybe add a recommencement reduction at vet 3 (or an extra entity).

HMG42
Is there a recent new bug that prevents the unit from firing?

Panzer grenadier
The timing of the unit seem to be a early. If the timing remain the same I would suggest to reduce cost to 280-300 and replace 2 ST44 with either K98 or MP40. Upgrades available could become 2 shcrek replacing the ST44 or 2 ST44.

1) Replace staring pio with grenadier.
The change will allow Ostheer to defend important buildings/position since the will be able to reach the at similar times as enemy infatry.
2) Swap grenadier with HMG from T0 and T1.

It will make everything even worse. Considering 1 gren = 1 cons and 1 gren < Rifles\Tommies.

You would either need to skip T1 and pios completly and back your first gren with other grens squads, to hold this key objectives, or somehow play with 1 gren squad, while your pios are beeing build, while they build T1 and while MG42 is being build.

It will make everything even worse. Considering 1 gren = 1 cons and 1 gren < Rifles\Tommies.

You would either need to skip T1 and pios completly and back your first gren with other grens squads, to hold this key objectives, or somehow play with 1 gren squad, while your pios are beeing build, while they build T1 and while MG42 is being build.

Grenadier can hold an important building, the second grenadier will slight delay but that is less of an issue.

Take for instance rails and metal south right. Now you can either sent the pio to defend the house or run the risk of losing the house. If the grenadier is the first unit it can defend the house until either a hmg is build or T1 and more grenadiers.

Grenadier can hold an important building, the second grenadier will slight delay but that is less of an issue.

Take for instance rails and metal south right. Now you can either sent the pio to defend the house or run the risk of losing the house. If the grenadier is the first unit it can defend the house until either a hmg is build or T1 and more grenadiers.

1 grenadier wont be able to hold this building untill HMG, because it will take too much time building pios, then t1 and then HMG. And by the time MG would be there, if you somehow managed to survive this gren would be just as good as dead and you will be left with MG in the building and pio squad, with second grenadier probably being half-ready.

The only viable strat would be, getting addtional 2-3 grens, hold the ground, then get pios and rush T2. Then later, backtech to T1 for HMG.

You wont have room\nor field presence to afford wasting time building pios and T1.

On rails and metal, for instance right now, if you want to hold the building and get T1, you can get first pio in it, then get MG in it, build second pio and get T1. This provides much more natural flow, since you will up one pio with flames and second one with sweepers later.

Maybe my post it is a bit unclear since not all the change meant to be done together.

Either HMG remains at T0 but Grenadier becomes starting unit or Grenadier becomes T0 and HMG T1 and pio remain starting unit.

And the mirrorification continues...

But it is a good idea to put the damn MG back in t1 and make grens buildable from HQ. You'd really rather have multiple grens and a sniper vs Brits because on most 2v2+ maps you can't do anything vs Brits who get green cover somewhere until 60 muni and the Bren carrier negates the MG anyway. Gren spam perfectly viable against US either to outnumber or outcap. Soviet a little more problematic because of hurrah but you should still be able to get your side even in 1v1.

Having both MG42 and PGrens on the HQ is indeed very strange. I definitely think Panzer Grenadiers should be moved back onto T2. Swapping Grenadier with MG42 is interesting too. Panzer Grens having been buffed so much now means that they no longer need to come out so early on the HQ. Units like Ostruppen and Ass Grens are difficult to balance when there are 3-4 of them being spammed instead of being mixed into Tier 1 strategies. Combined arms is such a richer way of playing Company of Heroes, and the ability to skip tech by having call-in spam into both HMG and PGrens means that you never see 1-2 squad of Ass Grens or Ostruppen mixed in for tactical use but instead 3-4 blobbing around.

Does the grenadier formation change apply to the 250 HT lmg squad in mechanized doctrine too? I forgot to check, but I put it here before I forget it.