[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

I only play USF in competitive and OKW in standard custom games. Scott can only be a potential menace in 1v1s. A big maybe in 2v2s. It does not have the wipe potential of werfers or stukas. It can induce a steady bleed through barrages and that's it. Those steady bleeds are much much more impactful in 1v1s than in 3v3+. Hence why you seldom see USF (frontpage has a picture of factions which are most played in all modes, USF is dead last in teamgames) in teamgames, and if you do, you will exclusively see calliope since E8 is not that impactful once Panthers and heavies start rolling out and Pershing's AI has been nerfed to the ground, compared to other heavies/units. So people play Calliope for mass infantry and Jacksons to keep the heavies at bay.

I've played a decent amount of the patch preview, more so the v1 and v2. Sander was right in one of his posts about the new role of Scott and I agree with him but the pak howi autofire AOE nerf is too big. Every game I used it, it had little to no impact out of barrages. Even against mass blobs coming your way, one shot would not punish the enemy for blobbing and they would immediately start moving their units or wait it out until werfer or stuka comes online to delete it or force it off, long enough for Obers or Grens to push in through yellow cover.
Scott is downright useless in 3v3. Tried using it and for all it's mobility, the cancerous way of using it is just too high. Not being able to fire over buildings in anything but barrages and ground targets is way too micro intensive, especially against mobile opponents. The barrage is accurate though. I can see it's use in 1v1s where you want to displace an enemy MG or AT gun or infantry behind heavy cover. So basically, it's a mobile barrage unit. Autofire is gutted.
Again. This is all 3v3. I am pretty sure these units are quite balanced in 1v1. USF is one of the stronger factions in 1v1 due to their versatility. Rocket arty is not as important and the population is limited. Tank dives are seldom and most people get cold feet.

The autofire on the pak howi should be gimped, it can barrage out to 120 range if memory serves its a mini howitzer not a super mortar. Usf also has a mortar with you want an autofire low micro indirect option.

Whats more, a single shot SHOULDN'T punish a blob. That's why it's getting nerfed, because a single shot can send a squad packing IF THEY ARE LUCKY. If not it just outright wipes it.
We had mortars that single handedly destroyed infantry combat by wiping squads that stopped moving and it was changed because it was cancer.

Ontop of the long range barrage the pak howi gets specialized barrages that ensure that it remains worth its price.

The Scott, as I said, it should be alright. While usf does lose out on rockets in team games it also benifits greatly from the resource inflation effect of team games. Usf iss far from inert in team games.

The autofire on the pak howi should be gimped, it can barrage out to 120 range if memory serves its a mini howitzer not a super mortar. Usf also has a mortar with you want an autofire low micro indirect option.

Whats more, a single shot SHOULDN'T punish a blob. That's why it's getting nerfed, because a single shot can send a squad packing IF THEY ARE LUCKY. If not it just outright wipes it.
We had mortars that single handedly destroyed infantry combat by wiping squads that stopped moving and it was changed because it was cancer.

Ontop of the long range barrage the pak howi gets specialized barrages that ensure that it remains worth its price.

The Scott, as I said, it should be alright. While usf does lose out on rockets in team games it also benifits greatly from the resource inflation effect of team games. Usf iss far from inert in team games.

You are also forgetting that Stuka/Werfer completely shuts down pak howi plays. Why would I go for a pak howi if it can't punish big ol blobs in 1-2 hits? Not to mention how slow the pak is, both in autofire and movement and easy to decrew (especially if the carrier is killed). I can backtech to get an MG, but in teamgames, it's usually useless, unless you get 2 .50 cals, which takes quite a bit of pop cap. Pak howi should not be accurate in autofire but it should be deadly. Less chance to wipe static squads but doesn't care about blobs since it's a target rich environment already. Pak howi can wipe more often but usually it takes 3 shots to wipe a full static squad, which is just enough for a 340 MP unit. If it fired more frequently I'd understand that the big nerfs are warranted. Pak should get a slight AOE nerf, not a 50% one it currently has. I've played it and it never ever punished blobs in V3. I always go for double pak and it's been firing at a 4x volks + 2x obers blob that were clumped up on Port Of Hamburger on the middle bridge. 5 shots altogether hit, killed (I think) 4 models altogether. Something like that. Tightrope video to watch how it behaves in a PERFECT scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUEU2BmXnK0&t=1103s
Now tightrope really clumped up A LOT (9) of squads. 0 models down. 0 bleed. Activate werfer or stuka on such a blob and it's gg. Of course, they come later and cost fuel alongside MP. And they are useless after that salvo. However, if given the chance, I'd much rather have a stock werfer/stuka than a pak howi -> In teamgames. If I played 1v1, I'd seldom get stuka and probably never werfer and would always prefer pak howi for that continuous damage and bleed.
Of course that howi needs a nerf. But not from:
1.5/3/4.5 to 1/2/4.5
But from:
1.5/3/4.5 to 1.25/2.25/4.5

Of course, that would be my middle ground for 1v1/teamgames. I don't think I've ever had a 3v3 where the enemy didn't go for LeFH (counterbarrage counters hard), stuka (hard counter), werfer (hard counter), Inf.sup.gun and somehow dealt with the paks, or at least kept them off the field for long enough to repair/reinforce and just be a big enough nuisance to force me to abandon the pak howi play and go for scotts to use them as smoke dispensers. Especially vs elefants and the likes. I haven't used scotts as anything but the smoke dispenser in live, and I def. don't plan to use them as anything else when the patch hits. Again, they can be quite useful in 1v1.
I understand that the patch focuses the least played mode since it's the "most" competitive but still....

All in all, I've seen people complain about the 10 armour reduction on Brummbar and calling it a useless unit that can't wipe squads... so I'm inclined to not give a F about anything. Still, would be nicer if 3v3+ got some love, especially in the map department

Every faction needs some form of mobile, mechanized artillery for late game arty duels and punishing blobs. For most factions thats Rocket Arty. For USF, it was supposed to be the Scott, trading wipe potential in exchange for constant bleed.

The proposed changes are removing its effectiveness as a bleed unit but not giving the faction any alternative elsewhere. If its only job is going to be to 'suppress' weapon teams, then I can get 2 Mortar Halftracks that will do the same job for cheaper than a single Scott. As an anti blob weapon, the HE Sherman will now just be the superior choice.

This is why I keep suggesting the Priest as an alternative. It gives USF something unique and of similar power to Rocket Artillery while still being unique to the faction, but would remove the constant bleed of the Scott in favor of a completely barrage based weapon.

i am not good with stats numbers, but the scott nerf is to decrease its auto fire range and decrease its manul fire damage but increase its manual fire aoe?

at 50 range, it is needs more micro instead of easier auto fire behind your infantry push and jackson defensive line.

how about give it wp rounds too? at least that can push away blobs

The power of USF in 2v2 comes from its infantry, to cause bleed. Not every game requires pack to punish blobs, but every game needs inf from start to end.

I can see why they tone down pack and Scott in light of this strong inf presence.

You are also forgetting that Stuka/Werfer completely shuts down pak howi plays. Why would I go for a pak howi if it can't punish big ol blobs in 1-2 hits? Not to mention how slow the pak is, both in autofire and movement and easy to decrew (especially if the carrier is killed). I can backtech to get an MG, but in teamgames, it's usually useless, unless you get 2 .50 cals, which takes quite a bit of pop cap. Pak howi should not be accurate in autofire but it should be deadly. Less chance to wipe static squads but doesn't care about blobs since it's a target rich environment already. Pak howi can wipe more often but usually it takes 3 shots to wipe a full static squad, which is just enough for a 340 MP unit. If it fired more frequently I'd understand that the big nerfs are warranted. Pak should get a slight AOE nerf, not a 50% one it currently has. I've played it and it never ever punished blobs in V3. I always go for double pak and it's been firing at a 4x volks + 2x obers blob that were clumped up on Port Of Hamburger on the middle bridge. 5 shots altogether hit, killed (I think) 4 models altogether. Something like that. Tightrope video to watch how it behaves in a PERFECT scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUEU2BmXnK0&t=1103s
Now tightrope really clumped up A LOT (9) of squads. 0 models down. 0 bleed. Activate werfer or stuka on such a blob and it's gg. Of course, they come later and cost fuel alongside MP. And they are useless after that salvo. However, if given the chance, I'd much rather have a stock werfer/stuka than a pak howi -> In teamgames. If I played 1v1, I'd seldom get stuka and probably never werfer and would always prefer pak howi for that continuous damage and bleed.
Of course that howi needs a nerf. But not from:
1.5/3/4.5 to 1/2/4.5
But from:
1.5/3/4.5 to 1.25/2.25/4.5

Of course, that would be my middle ground for 1v1/teamgames. I don't think I've ever had a 3v3 where the enemy didn't go for LeFH (counterbarrage counters hard), stuka (hard counter), werfer (hard counter), Inf.sup.gun and somehow dealt with the paks, or at least kept them off the field for long enough to repair/reinforce and just be a big enough nuisance to force me to abandon the pak howi play and go for scotts to use them as smoke dispensers. Especially vs elefants and the likes. I haven't used scotts as anything but the smoke dispenser in live, and I def. don't plan to use them as anything else when the patch hits. Again, they can be quite useful in 1v1.
I understand that the patch focuses the least played mode since it's the "most" competitive but still....

All in all, I've seen people complain about the 10 armour reduction on Brummbar and calling it a useless unit that can't wipe squads... so I'm inclined to not give a F about anything. Still, would be nicer if 3v3+ got some love, especially in the map department

the picture you are drawing here of the impact of the AoE changes to the Pack Howie is pretty much blown out of proportion. yes the numbers do look drastic, but if you do the math this accounts for only a 10 - 15% DPS loss at typical engagement range within the first two shots fired.
and, contrary to the AoE changes to heavy tanks a while ago (which decreased the damage output by a similar margin but, at the same time, severely limited the ability to one-shot full health models), the Howie was never able to instagib entities at 80 HP in the first place. hence the reduction of the AoE near and mid distances has much less impact on the ability to drop models than it may appear on first sight.

EDIT: seems like i didn't get my math straight before posting: the DPS loss should be about 15% at max range (80 m) and 10% at close (40 m).

Pack howitzer has the WP barrage and Heat barrage. Both are superior to other mortar stock mortar type weapons.

Heat barrage is actually on of the few barrage from mortar type weapons that can kill model with the first shot.

When did the pakhowizer become a mortar type of unit?

When did the pakhowizer become a mortar type of unit?

The same time Le.ig become one. Feel free to come up with different name for those types of units.

The same time Le.ig become one. Feel free to come up with different name for those types of units.

Leig becoming a mortar type is maybe true but that doesn't make a reason for your claim about the pakhowi. Their stats are significantly different to think the contrary.

Leig becoming a mortar type is maybe true but that doesn't make a reason for your claim about the pakhowi. Their stats are significantly different to think the contrary.

I am not claiming anything, feel free to call them what you like.

Do you have a point that is actually related to pak howitzer, leig or any mortar or is this another lines of posts that focus on a person instead of the game?

When did the pakhowizer become a mortar type of unit?

Functionally it's a mortar with an extended ranged barrage and no retreat. Everything else is just a costume.
The 120mm was still a mortar despite its old vastly superior to normal mortar profile.

For all intents and purposes anything that's going to auto fire in an indirect manner is mortar like- for ease of communication, for mortars are the dominant example of this.

Functionally it's a mortar with an extended ranged barrage and no retreat. Everything else is just a costume.
The 120mm was still a mortar despite its old vastly superior to normal mortar profile.

For all intents and purposes anything that's going to auto fire in an indirect manner is mortar like- for ease of communication, for mortars are the dominant example of this.

It's functionally a mortar without retreat that unlocks a Howitzer barrage.

It's functionally a mortar without retreat that unlocks a Howitzer barrage.

That's much better than the mouthful I tried to hack out. Thanks.

I still say just remove smoke pots from Scott to make it less hard to kill and give it additional offensive options like HEAT/Time Fuse Bombs that's a slower/more powerful/less accurate barrage. That way Scott can actually punish blobs and do more damage than it's low damage barrage sniper 5.0 form currently. Gives you flexibity to use Scott as either sniper or as area denial but your opponent has more ability to dodge the more damaging barrage.

Slow, inaccurate, yet powerful shells is why the 120mm mortar is trash. EITHER make the barrage shots slower, OR make it less powerful, but DON'T cut accuracy. On a targeted ability like a barrage, it NEEDS to reliably force movement and not be a lotto cannon.

GENERALLY, barrages should be fast, accurate, but not 80 damage@large AoE shots to allow counterplay and response. Rocket Arti violates this normally, its why everyone hates fighting it.

The autofire can be spray-n-pray (to a greater extent), its not a dedicated tool for quickly forcing movement, its for bleed.

The Balance Team has done a pretty good job moving mortars towards this paradigm, see the Pack Howi whining.

In the June 21 patch before M36 for it HP increased it had it acceleration increased to 3 as bandaid

"M36 Jackson

Developer Comments: Increased LOS to allow the M36 to better kite, locate and hunt enemy armor without boosting its firepower any further.
LOS from 35 to 40
Tank acceleration increased from 2.5 to 3
Veterancy 2 sight radius bonus changed from 30% to add 5

Since firepower and HP have been increased one should revert acceleration change the same way that sight bonus was removed.

In the June 21 patch before M36 for it HP increased it had it acceleration increased to 3 as bandaid

"M36 Jackson

Developer Comments: Increased LOS to allow the M36 to better kite, locate and hunt enemy armor without boosting its firepower any further.
...
Tank acceleration increased from 2.5 to 3
...

Since not the performance has been increased one sould revert this change.

Are we going to re-instate its sight range too, because it lost that advantage, as well as axis armor got their own performance boosts?

In the June 21 patch before M36 for it HP increased it had it acceleration increased to 3 as bandaid

"M36 Jackson

Developer Comments: Increased LOS to allow the M36 to better kite, locate and hunt enemy armor without boosting its firepower any further.
...
Tank acceleration increased from 2.5 to 3
...

Since firepower and HP have been increased one should revert this change.

It is worth mentioning that the patch Vipper is referring to has been released in 2016, and that major balance modification has been added to the game, and that the game has been through endless patches since. Interestingly, it was deemed important to state which month the patch was released but not which year. Please add which year the patch has been released to ensure that nobody gets accidentally mislead thinking that it was a recent change. That patch has also worked on tirelessly with Relic and with members of the community and I would not disrepectfully call Relic's Developer changes "bandaids".

Your developer comment is almost five years old. You would have to revert a lot of other things too if you insist on that change.

Would giving the Scott a WP barrage in place of it's smoke do anything to help it? It would make the Scott a much stronger displacer against team weapons and enemy infantry. You would for sure need to make sure it isn't spammable (like a long/shared cooldown) but it would probably be a more effective ability than just regular smoke.

Or maybe introduce like a long range but slow firing ability? Call it like "Long range Barrage" and have it be similar to the UK mortar heavy barrage that is getting put in this patch. Essentially it's a long range ability that would have the scott fire numerous rounds in a specific area. Could be a way to give them more harassment options especially against stuff like enemy artillery units.