[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion
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6 Dec 2020, 21:34 PM
#381
Posts: 956
Just would like to say that the WC51 range nerf is greatly deserved. On the other hand, I swear I'm getting worse as a player when I (ab)use that thing.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
6 Dec 2020, 21:50 PM
#382
Posts: 1289
Its natular weakness is its advantages, in other words the fact that it needs to be exposed to the enemy and do risky moves in order to be effective. It it was an all-rounder tank like comet, then yes.
Panther has its health pool and armor, not because "yolo german engineering", but because of the way its designed to be played.
Other TDs are ment for defensive and supportive play, if you try playing defensively with panther, you would have a dead weight on your shoulders.
And speaking of the change. Basic acc buff aimed at situations where it shouldn't really miss, considering its role in the game. Basically to lower chance of BS situations happening.
Veterancy buff is there, because all other TDs on their vet 2 get penetration buffs to imporove their area of usage, panther gets vet 2 acc buff to improve its area of usage as a hit-and-run TD.
So it being able dive in just to bounce most rounds and still take a pounding if penned and get out scot free are also its weakesses? That it doesnt have td accuracy and range is because of this yes.
The jackson is fast accurate but not durable. And is considerd op by quite a few players. So what would that make the panther if it became more accurate and keeps its armour and hp and speed/mobility?
I think its hit and run is helped more with speed buffs with vet. Its blitz is a good example.
6 Dec 2020, 22:27 PM
#383
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
So it being able dive in just to bounce most rounds and still take a pounding if penned and get out scot free are also its weakesses? That it doesnt have td accuracy and range is because of this yes.
The jackson is fast accurate but not durable. And is considerd op by quite a few players. So what would that make the panther if it became more accurate and keeps its armour and hp and speed/mobility?
I think its hit and run is helped more with speed buffs with vet. Its blitz is a good example.
Panther has 90 rear armor, t34\76 long range penetration is 80. Anything shooting at panther rear will be a penetration shot.
Jackson considered OP, because its has ALL the advantges of proper TDs (range, penetration, damage, accuracy) and on top of that ALL the advantages, but armor and AI, of a medium tank (speed, turret, ROF).
What advantages panther have? Frontal armor, premium medium health, penetration, speed, turret.
Even with accuracy buffs, panther is: much more expensive, has lower range then other TDs, has to exposed to the enemy, has to be involved in a much more risky play then other TDs.
6 Dec 2020, 22:43 PM
#384
Posts: 1003
Panther has 90 rear armor, t34\76 long range penetration is 80. Anything shooting at panther rear will be a penetration shot.
Simply use Panther range advantage versus enemy tanks. And dont expose rear with nearly fastes tank in game.
tanks < panther < TD < heavy TD + AT infantry < infanty < tanks
I want to have the same chance, to win for each side.
6 Dec 2020, 22:57 PM
#385
Posts: 1289
Panther has 90 rear armor, t34\76 long range penetration is 80. Anything shooting at panther rear will be a penetration shot.
Jackson considered OP, because its has ALL the advantges of proper TDs (range, penetration, damage, accuracy) and on top of that ALL the advantages, but armor and AI, of a medium tank (speed, turret, ROF).
What advantages panther have? Frontal armor, premium medium health, penetration, speed, turret.
The panther has enough hp and speed to have a good chance to escape from the t34 in its back. Any at support for the pather will melt the t34. Its also not very dufficult to keep the t34 in front of the panther.
The jackson has no ai no heavy crush and eats muni to fight at its best in a muni starved faction. The jackson is not supported by p4's stugs or jp4.
Panthers has ai and heavie crush on top of the points you listed. The later increasing its chance of getting drop on or escaping tanks or bad situations. It might not have 60 range but has 50 thats more then most tanks get.
7 Dec 2020, 10:36 AM
#386
Posts: 143
Can you guys please stop that nonsense panther acc discussion by atleast providing source from THE ACTUAL PREPATCH MOD showing it might be prolematic?
7 Dec 2020, 11:17 AM
#387
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Panther has 90 rear armor, t34\76 long range penetration is 80. Anything shooting at panther rear will be a penetration shot.
Jackson considered OP, because its has ALL the advantges of proper TDs (range, penetration, damage, accuracy) and on top of that ALL the advantages, but armor and AI, of a medium tank (speed, turret, ROF).
What advantages panther have? Frontal armor, premium medium health, penetration, speed, turret.
Even with accuracy buffs, panther is: much more expensive, has lower range then other TDs, has to exposed to the enemy, has to be involved in a much more risky play then other TDs.
If you count the 160 dmg and ROF of 6,925s / 5,43s (vet 3) of the Jackson as an advantage, you should maybe also count the 160 dmg and 6,9s / 5,28s ROF on the Panther? Plus penning all Allied stock armor from vet0 with 100%, too?
And if I am not mistaken, isn't the turret rotation also 34 vs 35 or so?
7 Dec 2020, 11:23 AM
#388
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Jackson [...] armor and AI, of a medium tank (speed, turret, ROF).
You truly are completely clueless if you think Jackon has any kind of AI at all or armor even close to that of a medium tank.
What advantages panther have? Frontal armor, premium medium health, penetration, speed, turret.
Even with accuracy buffs, panther is: much more expensive, has lower range then other TDs, has to exposed to the enemy, has to be involved in a much more risky play then other TDs.
100% more armor, 50% more health(that's non limited HEAVY tank durability, not premium med), attack/escape tool at vet1.
Durability advantage negates more risk involved, range is irrelevant, because you should always have a cover of ATGs and if you REALLY do need that extra range, not a single heavy tank requires 60 and for 60 you have JP4, which also is a HARD COUNTER to all allied 60 range TDs from vet1 onwards for OKW and Ost can just zone them with PaKs anyway.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Dec 2020, 11:26 AM
#389
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
JP4 does not hard counter Allied it TDs since it can not chase them. It can zone them and win a slug fight only if allied TDs decide to slug it out.
7 Dec 2020, 11:34 AM
#390
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
JP4 does not hard counter Allied it TDs since it can not chase them. It can zone them and win a slug fight only if allied TDs decide to slug it out.
Then allied TDs don't counter panther, because they can't chase it, panther can just flank, poke them and reverse away without problems.
If a unit can't operate effectively because of presence of another unit, that is a LITERAL DEFINITION OF A COUNTER.
Counter does not mean kill, otherwise nothing hardcounters infantry in this game.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Dec 2020, 11:42 AM
#391
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Then allied TDs don't counter panther, because they can't chase it, panther can just flank, poke them and reverse away without problems.
If a unit can't operate effectively because of presence of another unit, that is a LITERAL DEFINITION OF A COUNTER.
Counter does not mean kill, otherwise nothing hardcounters infantry in this game.
I am not going to argue Semantic with you, since you already deliberately blurring the use of the terms "counter", "hard counter" and zone.
I am pretty sure that if JP4 was a hard counter to allied TDs it would see more use.
FF Speed: 5.3 Accel: 1.6 Rotate: 32 (to receive a buff in the coming patch)
JP4 Speed: 5.5 Accel: 1.9 Rotate: 20
Su-85 Speed: 5.7 Accel: 2.1 Rotate: 22
Panther Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30
M36 Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30
7 Dec 2020, 11:44 AM
#392
Posts: 1289
Can you guys please stop that nonsense panther acc discussion by atleast providing source from THE ACTUAL PREPATCH MOD showing it might be prolematic?
The question is and should be, does it need an acc buff with vet?
Imo it most defenitly does not. Its a tank with heavy armour heavy hp heavy crush, medium rof higher medium tank speed, range between regular tank range 40 and 60 range td's its accuracy is better then mediums but worse then td's.
7 Dec 2020, 11:52 AM
#393
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I am pretty sure that if JP4 was a hard counter to allied TDs it would see more use.
Don't worry, its hidden op, like dshk was.
We just have to nerf panther enough to prevent power creep and you'll see how op it is.
Also, we've had this argument many times already and many times you were proven wrong by Sander and/or Miragefla.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Dec 2020, 12:00 PM
#394
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Don't worry, its hidden op, like dshk was.
Is that sarcasm, are really claiming that Dhsk was not OP?
Do I have to explain to you the difference between a stock and doctrinal unit?
Also, we've had this argument many times already and many times you were proven wrong by Sander and/or Miragefla.
Quote or didn't happen.
We just have to nerf panther enough to prevent power creep and you'll see how op it is.
Well it seem that by Sander93 and/or Miragefla disagree without since they plan to buff the Panther instead of nerfing as you suggest.
7 Dec 2020, 12:32 PM
#395
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
You truly are completely clueless if you think Jackon has any kind of AI at all or armor even close to that of a medium tank.
You are nuts of something? You quoted me, deleted part where I said that it dont have armor\ai of a medium, and then claimed I said Jackson have armor and ai.
7 Dec 2020, 12:35 PM
#396
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You are nuts of something? You quoted me, deleted part where I said that it dont have armor\ai of a medium, and then claimed I said Jackson have armor and ai.
With the wording you've used, could be interpreted either way.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Dec 2020, 12:55 PM
#397
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
If you count the 160 dmg and ROF of 6,925s / 5,43s (vet 3) of the Jackson as an advantage, you should maybe also count the 160 dmg and 6,9s / 5,28s ROF on the Panther? Plus penning all Allied stock armor from vet0 with 100%, too?
And if I am not mistaken, isn't the turret rotation also 34 vs 35 or so?
Yes, sure it has it. My point was, that considering its price and role, Jackson is a jack of all trades, unlike other defensive TD like units. By damage I meant AP rounds, if you need them.
As for panther, you can count rof\turret. But imho, considering its not a defensive TD and cant be directly compared to other TDs, thouse are essentials to its usage, so armor\speed\health is what makes panther stand out.
With the wording you've used, could be interpreted either way.
What ever, read more carefully next time and trigger less.
7 Dec 2020, 13:02 PM
#398
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The question is and should be, does it need an acc buff with vet?
Imo it most defenitly does not. Its a tank with heavy armour heavy hp heavy crush, medium rof higher medium tank speed, range between regular tank range 40 and 60 range td's its accuracy is better then mediums but worse then td's.
It is also a vehicle that is more expensive than both mediums and heavy TDs.
The advantages it has come with at a price, so comparing without taking into account the cost is rather misleading.
7 Dec 2020, 13:11 PM
#399
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
With the wording you've used, could be interpreted either way.
Reading comprehension 404.
Isn't that petty "discussion" about phrasing while the actual meaning is pretty clear exactly what you usually complain about?
7 Dec 2020, 13:16 PM
#400
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Yes, sure it has it. My point was, that considering its price and role, Jackson is a jack of all trades, unlike other defensive TD like units. By damage I meant AP rounds, if you need them.
As for panther, you can count rof\turret. But imho, considering its not a defensive TD and cant be directly compared to other TDs, thouse are essentials to its usage, so armor\speed\health is what makes panther stand out.
What ever, read more carefully next time and trigger less.
I don't argue about the Jackson being stronger than it's price suggests, but we've had plenty of discussion about this already in other threads, so I'll leave it at the note that in my opinion this is due to USF faction design that otherwise has no reliable and easily available high pen unit.
Panther and Jackson are both "jack of all trades". The Panther is just more expensive an durable.
Overall though, I'd say comparing the Panther to the Jackson without faction context is pretty flawed by design.
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