[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

+1.
I'm also of opinion that if ISU HE shell is losing range, ALL the other AT shells should follow the suit.
These vehicles are nothing but problems from day 1 and the origin is always the same - unreasonably high frontal durability, range and guaranteed penetration on everything.

Lately I've been thinking if it'd be worth going the Marder III / KV-2 route and limiting rate of fire and gun range while mobile, but allowing them to set up to reach their fullest potential. That would make flanking attacks and heavy artillery more effective, it won't be able to run away as easily. It may even be worth reducing overall durability and cost so that this penalty doesn't make it go the way of the KV-2 (which itself really needs some love).

At the very least, the Elefant should lose 10 range.

That logic applies for Brumbar

The Brummbar already got its range nerfed a few patches ago for exactly the same reason.

At the very least, the Elefant should lose 10 range.

Elefant is designed to counter Allies' TDs (SU85, M36, Firefly). How could it fulfil this role if it has same range as Allies' TDs?

Elefant is designed to counter Allies' TDs (SU85, M36, Firefly). How could it fulfil this role if it has same range as Allies' TDs?

The exact same way a Panther counters M10.

The exact same way a Panther counters M10.

If Elefant has mobility comparable to M36, I won't mind it only has 60 range.

If Elefant has comparable mobility to M36, I won't mind it only has 60 range.

You don't need that to bully SU-85 or FF.

Elefant is designed to counter Allies' TDs (SU85, M36, Firefly). How could it fulfil this role if it has same range as Allies' TDs?

400 frontal armour and high HP. Heck, I remember in one 3v3 on Redball it was impossible until my mate with katyushas came in and plenty of smoke to help me out.
Elefant + 2x brummbar + MG + some pios + grens and one JP4 from teammate. It was impossible for me to push.
Tried 3x Jackson -> nullified (4 shots I managed to put on the elefant, all 4 bounced)
Tried smoking -> Brummbar target ground
Didn't have any offmap (heavy cav commander).
I don't blame the units, I blame the map. Redball is a horrible horrible teamgame map that favours Heavy TDs, ISU152 and JP4s alongside heavy tanks since there is little to no flanking potential since it's practically just 3 narrow lanes.

ISU is getting nerfed rightfully. How to balance out the elefant in teamgames? I really don't know. Range, ROF, agility? Don't know

Personally I don't understand why some of the Sandbags are getting nerfed instead of just removing sandbags on all Rifle infantry and instead only having them on Engineer units. That would make them so much more tactical and interesting instead of just being spammed around the place.

The Brummbar already got its range nerfed a few patches ago for exactly the same reason.

The Brumbar does not face elefant or JT, the only relevant equivalence here could be the UKF 17 pounder. Anything else that can shoot a the brumbar can be targeted back from safe range by those aberrations.

Nobody would mind reducing the ISU152 to normal range if there weren't the Elefant or Jagtiger to say hello in every teamgame. You can't simply tackle one issue (because we all agree this is effectively an issue) and leave the others untouched and create a huge unbalanced situation.

Elefant is designed to counter Allies' TDs (SU85, M36, Firefly). How could it fulfil this role if it has same range as Allies' TDs?

With good positioning and combined arms.

Git gud

Personally I don't understand why some of the Sandbags are getting nerfed instead of just removing sandbags on all Rifle infantry and instead only having them on Engineer units. That would make them so much more tactical and interesting instead of just being spammed around the place.

Because engineers are generally already overloaded with tasks. Especially Sappers and Sturmpios, whose corresponding mainlines "coincidentally" are the ones that can build sandbags. Conscripts are a separate category, as they are not a proper combat unit in the same sense as other mainlines.

Ele, jagtiger can have range reduce to 65, to nolonger our range the 17 pounder. Theoretically they all have 70 range but jag, ele can attach ground in to the perimeter of the 17 pounder when remain out of it range, which is very inconsistency.

Reducing the range of the ISU is a bad way to fix whatever the perceived issue is.

I suppose the issue is that, to counter ISU, axis team must go Elefant or Jagdtiger. But, reducing the HE range of the ISU is an awful way to go about fixing this issue because, as was explained earlier, ISU is very vulnerable to axis armor, especially the Panther, from all ranges.

If there is going to be an ISU range nerf then there ought to be some significant boost to its maneuverability and speed so it can effectively withdraw. Changing ISU like this is going to necessitate changes to the stats of other tanks, not just elefant and jagdtiger, because the threat of a P4/Panther push is going to be much more potent.

Theoretically, I'd love to see a coh that does not have crazy powerful individual things like ISU152, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, etc., but focuses more on medium tanks and and infantry combat but that's for a different thread

Reducing the range of the ISU is a bad way to fix whatever the perceived issue is.

I suppose the issue is that, to counter ISU, axis team must go Elefant or Jagdtiger. But, reducing the HE range of the ISU is an awful way to go about fixing this issue because, as was explained earlier, ISU is very vulnerable to axis armor, especially the Panther, from all ranges.

If there is going to be an ISU range nerf then there ought to be some significant boost to its maneuverability and speed so it can effectively withdraw. Changing ISU like this is going to necessitate changes to the stats of other tanks, not just elefant and jagdtiger, because the threat of a P4/Panther push is going to be much more potent.

Theoretically, I'd love to see a coh that does not have crazy powerful individual things like ISU152, Elefant, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, etc., but focuses more on medium tanks and and infantry combat but that's for a different thread

Not really. The 60 range nerf is not as bad as it seems. And COH2 definitely needs such tanks. Adds much needed flavour. ISU needs rear armour nerf to 120 and HE range nerf to 60 or 65. Nothing else

To me, the ISU is a crutch in Soviet late game. If things are even, I am often relying on that thing to wipe squads. In much the same way it is or was a tactic to use Sturmtigers for the same role. Having to go forwards into battle, take a shot or two from a Jagd or Elefant, then having to retreat and repair, will make it more vulnerable to pushes more of the time, make it do less damage over time as it's forced to withdraw, and these two aspects combined will make it less useful when it is sorely needed.

Still, with this nerf to ISU152, one no longer needs to change rear armour because the main use of ISU152, which is to snipe units is in range of JP4 and heavy tank destroyers. Even a panther can take it on with a bit of closing in (50 range vs 60 HE mode).

Elefant and Jagdtiger are the best anti tank units in the team games, 2v2+ they completely shut down any sort of tank play, especially if supported well, but they are not OP. With the exception of the nuke ability on Jagd, elefant is weak to infantry and can be flanked if out of position.

When you're saying things like this, I agree, but I wonder why you think it's fine that ISU has lower range. Ele and Jagd can already shoot at it from the front and, I'm sure, reliably penetrate it at maximum range, let alone fifty range.

Not really. The 60 range nerf is not as bad as it seems.

it is bad because ISU is going to have to repair or be more vulnerable to pushes as it takes damage from its now shortened maximum range.

ISU-152's ability to snipe infantry from behind a wall of AT I would say is more impactful as you stop all ability to capture territory and also can deny VPs for infantry daring to step on that. The JT and Elefant are more devastating to vehicles, but they can't lock out a VP or territory from infantry on their own and bleed the opponent of infantry.

I raise you Jagdtiger's barrage ability, and, secondly, the Brummbär's (although less extreme but still with considerable range).

If anything, I'd like to keep the range as is but, to counter this, maybe increase scatter when attacking ground to make smoke more feasible?

I appreciate the response. Some additional thoughts for you and the team:

• Soviets rely on armor late game to counter vetted axis infantry. Having an Elephant or JT on the field sitting behind a defense shield negates their ability to operate, especially the ones that are good at AI, such as the T70 or T34. As such, I'd say that the Axis player could equally lockout territory by sitting and sniping with the Elephant or JT and using other armor or vetted infantry to hold points. Please consider applying a similar treatment to the Elephant or JT.
  
• What role, if any, does the KV2 have in the game?
  
  

Here's Napalm saying the same thing I said above, where Soviet vehicles are the wiping tools of the Soviets, not elite infantry squads with LMGs. When you have Ele and Jagd shutting down a sector of the map it's difficult or impossible to wipe axis squads with the anti-infantry oriented tanks that are so necessary. Same for USF, too, with the standard Sherman and 105mm howitzer Sherman.


I'm including this from Mr. Someguy because he has done the hard work for me already. I think the points he makes here and the numbers he provides illustrate just how difficult it can be in an evenly matched late game.

What I said in the Soviet thread fits here as well, since we are now talking about the Elefant and the ISU-152 and their respective positions in each Army.

Jump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 10:28 AMMr. Someguy

The Elefant and Jagdtiger are heavy casemate tank destroyers with 110 Rear Armor and 1040HP, the SU-85 cannot challenge them because it is woefully outranged and outgunned, so they must flank it with T-34-76 but this is not successful either because the immense HP and occasional bouncing mean that you could leave it idle and alone and it'll take a pair of T-34-76's twenty seconds to kill it.

Unlike facing the ISU-152, the Soviets don't have a Panther they can send forth to poke holes in the front or front sides without risking swift annihilation. An Elefant does 300 damage, so a shot to an SU-85 that dare challenge it will put it down to 340HP in a single counter-hit. An ISU does 240 damage, so if a Panther steps up to challenge it, a successful counter-hit will only put it down to 720.

It is very difficult for stock Soviet to deal with an Elefant that is completely unsupported, add in the fact that it absolutely will be supported and you've got something that is incredibly difficult or even outright impossible to remove. On the other hand, Ostheer and OKW both have a tank that can not only take a few hits to the face, but dish some out.

Let's pretend Axis can only field Panzer IV's and have to deal with an ISU-152. You still have a much easier time than the T-34-76 v Elefant: Panzer IV's higher penetration allows them to punch through the ISU's weaker rear armor 100% of the time from max range, while a T-34-76 is required to close in to medium-close range for a 100% chance to penetrate an Elefant from the back. Now factor in that the Panzer IV has blitz, and it is extremely easy to rush around the side of an ISU even if it starts reversing. But Ostheer/OKW doesn't even have to do this, because they have the Panther.

Soviets do not get that choice, and they still have it considerable harder. Had the Soviet's medium tank been the T-34-85 I would understand, but it's not. Lowering the ISU-152's rear armor to Elefant's does not level the playing field, it unbalances it. Here is statistical proof:

Panzer IV vs ISU-152 (Live)
125/115/110 Pen vs 155 Armor = 80%/74%/70% chance to penetrate.

T-34-76 vs Elefant/Jagdtiger
120/100/80 Pen vs 110 Armor = 109%/90%/72% chance to penetrate.

Panzer IV vs ISU-152 (Preview)
125/115/110 Pen vs 110 Armor = 113%/104%/100% chance to penetrate.

Now consider Axis also have access to Panzerschrecks which they could support their Panther or Panzer IV rush with, and you're dealing damage to the ISU at a rate far exceeding what a T-34-76 rush could do to an Elefant or Jagdtiger.

Overall, I think if only the ISU is going to be changed and it's going to receive both a rear armour nerf and a range nerf with it's HE ammunition, then it should also receive mobility/speed buffs, significant reduction to switch shell types, and/or a reload increase to AP rounds. This is all to counter the vulnerabilities that are being introduced to it.

ISU-152's ability to snipe infantry from behind a wall of AT I would say is more impactful as you stop all ability to capture territory and also can deny VPs for infantry daring to step on that. The JT and Elefant are more devastating to vehicles, but they can't lock out a VP or territory from infantry on their own and bleed the opponent of infantry.

And while I'm not responding too much, be assured we're keeping an eye on the posts passing through the threads.

But Napalm is right about the effect on the late game in 4v4's. Right now, games can go either way in the late game, and there is an okay trade between Ele/Jt backed by Brum/mg's/paks/elite infantry versus ISU/Jacksons/Firefly with at guns and regular infantry. Without the range of the ISU, it's going to be much worse at forcing retreats because the Ele and JT will outrange its HE round. Add in the SU85 and Jackson nerfs and you've just wrecked late game for Allies unless everyone wants to play UKF.

Lastly, it seems really odd that the ISU is getting nerfed on a patch that is intended for core or META issues. It's not a core unit, and not particularly META given the large number of maps where it's a bad idea. If it's going to be nerfed, it should be done in a patch that focuses on heavies (other than the rear armor nerf which is fine).

It will make the first 4/5 mins more interesting but then it would lead to people blobbing harder and this is no deterrent to main line infantry spam which has been a thing since 7 years ago.

The only times you would see a heavier combined arms approach, is when mortars were utterly bonkers as afk units.


I'm opening a thread to discuss the relationship between MG, main line, mortars and late game.

I don't see how removing sandbags leads to more blobbing. The opposite is the case. Sandbags prevent offensive plays that involve spreading out your units because you can't 1v1 units behind sandbags. If every enemy mainline is sitting behing a sandbag you have to overwhelm one of them, in other words blob.

Gonna respond to your thread tomorrow, some interesting points.

The ISU has been a problematic crutch unit for years. Compounded by the fact that all commanders that have it come with elite infantry and off map bombs that counter anything that has a chance of reliably damaging said ISU.

It should not be such a no-brainer unit.

Bring back 100 range elefant, jag, isu