Future Balance Items by Relic

wifi! clean this shit up!

guys please try to stay on topic if you would acting like civilized individuals i know im asking alot...

nothing to see here People moving along.

Also, I don't think the T70 needs a nerf, it just shows up too early. If you nerf the T70 because of the SI doctrine, you are making T3 a weaker and less intriguing choice for every single other doctrine. How does relic plan on balancing a unit that can show up on the field at either 5 minutes, or 8-10, depending on the doctrine choice?

Redesign of Soviet Infantry to start with.

And then increase T70's price. I'd suggest 200~240 mp to prevent spam.

Redesign of Soviet Infantry to start with.

And then increase T70's price. I'd suggest 200~240 mp to prevent spam.

Delaying its appearance should be enough as multiple T-70s wouldn't have that much of an impact later in the game when decent portion of AT or heavy hitters are on the field.

quite easy. give the industry a 7 min debuff called "hastened production". all vehicles produced during the debuff suffer a mild penality , beacause they were produced in a hurry. all vehicles produce beyond that are not affected

I think one of the biggest issues with Soviet Industry is not being able to properly prepare for it. Currently there is no way to gather the knowledge required to even know if your opponent has chosen Soviet Industry until the T70 is already out. There needs to be a reliable way to identify that a massive armor spam is inc so the German player can prepare before its too late.

Also, I don't think the T70 needs a nerf, it just shows up too early. If you nerf the T70 because of the SI doctrine, you are making T3 a weaker and less intriguing choice for every single other doctrine. How does relic plan on balancing a unit that can show up on the field at either 5 minutes, or 8-10, depending on the doctrine choice?

As I said before. You can tell this by low infantry count in the early game. If he went infantry heavy then T-70 will come out at reasonable time (which will be delayed even more with the upcoming changes to the commander).

I d just like to point out that nerfing the t70 and increasing the build times of soviet buildings is going to hurt those ppl who DONT play soviet industry the most not vice versa . if the overall output of the t70 is decreased ( which by the way is very questionable , many ppl have expressed serious arguments that it wont ) then t70 spammers will just play a bit more cautiously with it till they get a second and operate them in pairs ( which according to some pros is the suitable way to operate them ) . The only difference i can see is t70s being less effective against units on retreat . Another issue to be answered is that t70s have a very small window of opportunity as far as resources go which means that if you havent won a substancial advantage in the early game you ll be facing a p4 with no active counters ( all that is ofcourse if you dont have sov industry ) .

This changes aim to hit soviets... As usual.
Moving TA from 7cp to 8??? And??? Just hang around a little longer and get a free superior tank.
TA has to be nerfed a lot more than this.

The scatter change is good, universally. Vehicle chasing/kiting of infantey has been out of whack imo for a long time.

As to T70, Im against MP cost increase, and prefer a range decrease.

The T70 itself causes MP bleed very consistently. Increasing its MP cost would only mean it has to kill a few more infantry to recoup its cost, and ultimately defeats the units own purpose.

What I see more as the problem is its range which makes a well microed T70 uncatchable by infantry. I propose reducing its range by 10. With its acceleration and mobility it can still yoyo in and out of range or LoS of infantry, but the micro requirement in reduced range pays for that.

Lets be serious here, T70s laugh at the MP bleed and more importantly, the enormous Shrek cost on PGrens. When someone invests 120 Muni into an infantry upgrade, its time for the T70 to start hunting other targets, not deliberately outranging and deliberately fucking up the fire rate on the Shreks.

Maybe it's just too harsh. The conversion could be made less pronounced, less manpower drain and less fuel gained and then put in some kind of OTHER thing than repair stations for industry players to use munitions on.

GASP what about GASP!!!! an ability to convert munitions into fuel ??? omg ???? can it be ??

The scatter change is good, universally. Vehicle chasing/kiting of infantey has been out of whack imo for a long time.

As to T70, Im against MP cost increase, and prefer a range decrease.

The T70 itself causes MP bleed very consistently. Increasing its MP cost would only mean it has to kill a few more infantry to recoup its cost, and ultimately defeats the units own purpose.

What I see more as the problem is its range which makes a well microed T70 uncatchable by infantry. I propose reducing its range by 10. With its acceleration and mobility it can still yoyo in and out of range or LoS of infantry, but the micro requirement in reduced range pays for that.

Lets be serious here, T70s laugh at the MP bleed and more importantly, the enormous Shrek cost on PGrens. When someone invests 120 Muni into an infantry upgrade, its time for the T70 to start hunting other targets, not deliberately outranging and deliberately fucking up the fire rate on the Shreks.

What you want is to be able to kill a specialist AI tank with infantry. Making PGrens even better than they are right now (possibly the best infantry in the game).

Shrecks are an upgrade to make Pgren less vulnerable to armored vehicles and to make them able to support tank offensives. I doubt it was never intended to see infantry with AT weapons killing anti-infantry tanks.

Kitting infantry is one of the mechanichs in the game that rewarded good micro, and any tank should always have more range than any hand-held AT weapon.
If not, just buy Elite Troops Commander and start spamming vetted PGrens + PGrens w/ shrecks. You won't need anything else to win.

While we are talking about patches I'd like to add the problems with entering/exiting building and mg setup after exiting a building. With the new mp boost and more sov options available I have see a few penals. Problem is though the input lag really hurts gameplay vs the satchel because of the response time. Even more notable is exiting buildings. When you exit a building it takes a good few seconds to actually select the unit and when that satchel is counting down those seconds are precious. I also noticed the game will miss the retreat button shortly after exiting houses but that could be me.

When an mg exits a house it immediately starts setting up right outside the door. This could be catastrophic for players losing an mg to start the game. Can this be fixed also?

I completely disagree. And every point I raised already addresses the ones you raise as rebuttals.
A) For 120 Muni for Shreks, a T70 better fuck off right away. Does it currently? No, it just moves in and out exploiting superior range, the Shrek fire cycle and LoS while sniping MP bleed.
B) An uograde to make Pgrens less vulnerable to vehicles? Oh my lols. What a beautiful piece of nonsense reverse logic. It doesnt make the PGrens any less vulnerable, nor is it intended thqt way lol. Its intended to force armor the fuck away, and it does so for 120 muni and loss in AI.
C) Kiting infantry with vehicles one of the best mechanics? All my lols. That must be why Relic has pproposed changing scatter to reduce AI efficacy on the move, eh? Again, wonderful piece of nonsense reverse logic.
D) Guard PTRS has more range. There goes your theory on that.
E) Buy Elite? Yeah, gj man. What an argument.

Contrived and ridiculous arguments designed to protect your priviledge.
Try playing some Ost dude, your bias is showing.

I completely disagree. And every point I raised already addresses the ones you raise as rebuttals.
A) For 120 Muni for Shreks, a T70 better fuck off right away. Does it currently? No, it just moves in and out exploiting superior range, the Shrek fire cycle and LoS while sniping MP bleed.
B) An uograde to make Pgrens less vulnerable to vehicles? Oh my lols. What a beautiful piece of nonsense reverse logic. It doesnt make the PGrens any less vulnerable, nor is it intended thqt way lol. Its intended to force armor the fuck away, and it does so for 120 muni and loss in AI.
C) Kiting infantry with vehicles one of the best mechanics? All my lols. That must be why Relic has pproposed changing scatter to reduce AI efficacy on the move, eh? Again, wonderful piece of nonsense reverse logic.
D) Guard PTRS has more range. There goes your theory on that.
E) Buy Elite? Yeah, gj man. What an argument.

Contrived and ridiculous arguments designed to protect your priviledge.
Try playing some Ost dude, your bias is showing.

Pgrens aren't a hard counter to t70's, which would be a problem if there weren't reasonable hard counters that come within 1 to 2 minutes, or if pgrens with shreks served no good role, but they do. Pgrens backing up a pack will make a t70 back off, and the pgrens will effectively protect the pak from being circle straffed by 1 or 2 of them. If you are going heavy t2, ostheer has potentially 4 soft-counters to t70's. Fausts, shreks, paks and Scout cars(Ive seen two employed quite effectively-though that's a hell of an investment). Even one can do the job if it catches a slightly injured t70 from the back, when it is distracted by anything, or if you did get in with a faust.

I do know that you believe that if you're a good player you don't get fausted, but i've seen plenty of games where the good players do get fausted. You have to neglect a lot of the shit going on if you're going to baby-sit every single half-second of your t70.

That all said, I don't love the idea of the suggested change at all, but I don't know how disastrous it would be. We'd have to see. I think that if you want to nerf t70's shock-value though, maybe you should bump back the p4 another 10 fuel to help suggest strongly to the ostheer player that he should build the stug as a counter, not just chill and wait for a p4 or oswind a minute down the line

While we are talking about patches I'd like to add the problems with entering/exiting building and mg setup after exiting a building. With the new mp boost and more sov options available I have see a few penals. Problem is though the input lag really hurts gameplay vs the satchel because of the response time. Even more notable is exiting buildings. When you exit a building it takes a good few seconds to actually select the unit and when that satchel is counting down those seconds are precious. I also noticed the game will miss the retreat button shortly after exiting houses but that could be me.

When an mg exits a house it immediately starts setting up right outside the door. This could be catastrophic for players losing an mg to start the game. Can this be fixed also?

This is because you didn't give it an actual command other then to get out of the building. Since the only order it has is to get out, when it exits it immedietly tries to set up and fire at squads. You can avoid this by clicking on the building, selecting the squad, and then clicking where you want it to go. It will then get out and run to the area you selected rather then just clicking the evacuate button.

But this isn't really the place for this.

Pgrens aren't a hard counter to t70's, which would be a problem if there weren't reasonable hard counters that come within 1 to 2 minutes, or if pgrens with shreks served no good role, but they do. Pgrens backing up a pack will make a t70 back off, and the pgrens will effectively protect the pak from being circle straffed by 1 or 2 of them. If you are going heavy t2, ostheer has potentially 4 soft-counters to t70's. Fausts, shreks, paks and Scout cars(Ive seen two employed quite effectively-though that's a hell of an investment). Even one can do the job if it catches a slightly injured t70 from the back, when it is distracted by anything, or if you did get in with a faust.

That is what I think. Shrecks are a purchasable AT weapon for Pgrens, like Recoiless Rifles were for paratroopers in vCoH.
Should a paratrooper with Recoiless Rifles be able to face Ostwinds then? No never.

The same way PGrens with shrecks can defend themselves from armored vehicles but they're not a hard counter to them. They still should rely in support units like Paks, armored cars, fausts, mines, etc.

And Nullist, as always you resort to the personal attack and harsh language to prove your points. Can't you talk like a polite grown up?

Your comparing a late game anti inf tank to a light armored vehicle. So therefore,in terms of vcoh , it would be paratroopers not able to defend themselves vs an m8, which is insane.

Your comparing a late game anti inf tank to a light very early tank. So there fore in terms of vcoh , it would be paratroopers not able to defend themselves vs an m8 which is insane.

I'm comparing a T2 unit (PGren) against a later T3 tank specialized in dealing with infantry. People make T70 to deal with infantry blobs. It will be stupid that one upgrade would make these infantry their hard counter.

Furthermore I don't know why you insist in placing Ostwind as late game tank and T70 as early tank. T70 usually appears no much before than Stugs, Ostwinds or PzIVs, specially if the soviet player bought molos and Atnades .
T70 shares Tier with these units which they all are hard counters to it.

The issue here is whitout doubt Soviet Industry, which widens the gap between tiers and rush soviet T3 when ostheer still have T2 and without ammo to purchase soft counters like the shreck.

Pgrens aren't a hard counter to t70's, which would be a problem if there weren't reasonable hard counters that come within 1 to 2 minutes, or if pgrens with shreks served no good role, but they do. Pgrens backing up a pack will make a t70 back off, and the pgrens will effectively protect the pak from being circle straffed by 1 or 2 of them. If you are going heavy t2, ostheer has potentially 4 soft-counters to t70's. Fausts, shreks, paks and Scout cars(Ive seen two employed quite effectively-though that's a hell of an investment). Even one can do the job if it catches a slightly injured t70 from the back, when it is distracted by anything, or if you did get in with a faust.

I do know that you believe that if you're a good player you don't get fausted, but i've seen plenty of games where the good players do get fausted. You have to neglect a lot of the shit going on if you're going to baby-sit every single half-second of your t70.

That all said, I don't love the idea of the suggested change at all, but I don't know how disastrous it would be. We'd have to see. I think that if you want to nerf t70's shock-value though, maybe you should bump back the p4 another 10 fuel to help suggest strongly to the ostheer player that he should build the stug as a counter, not just chill and wait for a p4 or oswind a minute down the line

Forcing ostheer to build stugs to counter t70s means ostheer is set back on fuel when su 85s come rolling. Why not make the p4 cost 200 fuel to encourage ostheer to build more tigers to counter su 85s?

This is the problem I have with the disparity between the Soviets and ostheer. 700+mp and 120 muntions and a hope is needed to just scare away a t70. Why doesn't ostheer also have light armor, instead of having to overmatch a cheap and early to field wtf kill machine. With expensive mines, forced purchase of 2 shreks, expensive pak (compared to vcoh, low effectiveness and long build time, low survivability) taking on one t70 is a challenge, but 2 or 3 takes the bulk of your army to deal with, barring you having tanks.

Your comparing a late game anti inf tank to a light armored vehicle. So therefore,in terms of vcoh , it would be paratroopers not able to defend themselves vs an m8, which is insane.

Agreed, in my eyes the T70 should fill a similar role to the AC of the PE, not the ostwind. It can be used to support and decimate infantry, but it is lightly armored and leaves your opponent the option of a tech to at least light armor.If the Germans had cheaper mines this would not be as much of a problem, but since they are near impossible to afford, the T70 can roam freely. The AC in vCOH was very vulnerable to well placed mines.

Greeb by your argument 2 T70's (based on cost, at which point it would be similar to ostwind) should not fear PG's which is currently true, but it should not be that one T70 can decimate PG's.

Also I think your concern about the balance of the T70 is more about the lack of AT inf the soviet have. The AC in vCOH allowed the PE player to field shreks if they went T2 T3. If the soviet player goes T2 T3 they can only get zis unless they want guards (which won't be able to stop the PIV alone), before the PIV. Ultimately, this makes the T70 less attractive, though it is one of the best units in the game.

You can use the T70 even in the late game with the commander out (especially now with vet changes) to determine if you want to engage in combat. You can always keep the VP's away from combat in your hands with this single cheap unit, or force your opponent to send more units away from the battle to defeat it.

TL DR: The T70 is too good right now, especially against PG's.
Reduce range, or another slight nerf to bring it in line.