Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
The whole point of conscripts 7th man is to give them the edge. If volks would still beat them then why even go 7th man? So that when P4 shoots and kills 4-5 models in a couple of seconds you still have chances to retreat the squad without losing it? That's just a typical meat-shield then. Get a grip with reality.
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Neither bolster nor 5 man grens upgrades the damage output of the stock weapons.
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
That's incorrect. 5 man grens grants a -15% cooldown bonus to the squad, and the new model has a g43
That cooldown bonus applies anywhere, unlike the 7 man cooldown bonus which only applies in cover
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
On top of that, gren upgrade further decreases rec acc of the squad, so you not only have extra health of 5th man, you have further 10% reduction in opponents damage output against you - at all times.
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Posts: 783
Both bolster and 5 man increase health and firepower by 25% the baseline while 7 man is only a 16% increase and it comes later.
Bolster is also a no drawback global and 5 man gives free med kits if memory serves. I'd say they are all roughly in line with one another so if one is a weapon upgrade they all ought to be. Only major difference frankly is timing.
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
I refuse to believe that that low low low low low level of effort and investment should rival the investment allies put into their mainline. I refuse.
It's not a volks problem that you are punished for losing a Vetted squad, it's a game mechanic.
If they were better they would need to be later. If they were cheaper they would need to be later.
Posts: 449
It could be becase it his super early on relatively durable squad. I mean all you need to do is try to get tanks at some point in the game and BAM. you can get stgs, you dont even need to retreat to base to pick em up. You don't even need to be in friendly territory to get em. The required effort to get them are actually the absolute lowest of any mainline weapon upgrade in the game. If they were better they would need to be later. If they were cheaper they would need to be later. It's truly strange that the faction with 2 forms of non doc elite infantry don't have rifle caliber cheap infantry isn't it?
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But the post you responding to is addressing whether or not 7man upgrade constitutes a weapon upgrade, regardless of the potency of other upgrades. I am yet unconvinced it is not(a weapon upgrade)
Posts: 5279
Its not, but it still harder for volks. Simply because of the raw damage output. Rifles\Tommies\Grens\Cons when upgraded, even without vet provide much highter damage out-put in a small periods of time. Volks and StGs are basically have to stay and enjoy long firefight, which wont happen.
or close against weaker targets. because their weapon is flexible it allows they to sit at range if they have to or close and benefit if possible. it also means that units that close on them are getting punished by increasing volks dps.
As it should have been in a first place. StG volks by its timing still lose against upgraded rifles\tommies\elites anyway and provide unessery powerspike against non-graded conscripts, while being completly outdated by lategame.
so volks with a 60 mu upgrade will lose against elite infantry or more expensive infantry with equal or greater muni investment and an actual unlock fee for thir weapons. i really hadnt thought of it that way. we should tell relic that you SHOULDNT get what you pay for...
We can start counting all units, count who has more elite\non-elite inf and light armor but its not a point. Point is being that Volks, aside from abilities, right now are the single main-line inf in the game which is objectively irrelevant for late game in terms of combat perfomance.
what? the army around the unit is just as important s the unit themselves. its not a vaccuum game, its about army composition and this supporting that as much as individual performance.
Cons were given 7-th for the same reason, except they were even weaker. But their idea was the same. To be somewhat alright in early\mid game in their niche, while being completly outdated by late game and act as a meatshield\snare\merge and cover for elite inf or support for something else.
cons were supposed to be support all game but fell short because they could at no point trade well against ANY okw infantry meaning they were dead weight. they had no time whwre they were top dog and their support role was pointless as a result. if you think holding out behind cover is tough with STGs and long range cover denial grenades that throw instantly imagine how it was without...
cons needed more because unlike okw their HMG and hard hitting infantry could be absent entirely putting more on their shoulders meanwhile they were supposed to hold their faction together.
your comparison would make a lot more sense if the soviet started with a shock squad, unlocked the maxim along with ppshs, AT nade and molitov just for teching up once and got guards at t4 but they dont. its literally impossible to not have all the support you for volks from AT infantry, to suppression to AI specialist.
I don't think this is a fair argument because the MG42 upgrade for Grens is pretty much the exact same. It comes at a similar time, and can be upgraded while in the field. But why do I think the LMG upgrade is a lot better? First, it's a direct upgrade. Both the Kar98 and LMG42 are long range weapons. With the StG upgrade you are trading long range firepower for a significant (but for relatively short period of time) boost in medium range firepower. Secondly, the LMG upgrade makes Grens much more replaceable, because in the late game, fresh LMG Grens can still do damage and vet up without being massacred trying to close in. I am aware the OKW is supposed to rely on Obers in the late game, but Obers do not have snares. As OKW if you're losing the late game infantry battles either you gotta keep losing them in hopes your tanks can make up for it or you gotta (significantly) weaken your anti-armor capabilities by ditching snares and go for elite infantry only. While I certainly understand that in the late game, Obers should be prioritized over Volks,
grens are a different animal because they are a 4 man squad. they need access to something that offsets that else they are completely useless. that said, both grens and volks upgrades highlight their intended roles. grens are defensive and volks are aggressive. additionally volks are NOT trading ANY long range firepower. they are GAINING firepower at ALL ranges, more at close range but they do gain at long range as well.
if you are losing late game infantry battles you need to adjust your play. volks can build a favorable posiiton and deny enemy cover. support them and screen with them so the units that are SUPPOSED to deal the damage dont take as much damage. volks work for this because if they close they are a threat, meaning you cant ignore them necessarily.
I don't think its fair to pay 260 MP for a squad that can only snare and recrew weapons.
yet its reasonable to pay 280mp for ass grens and not even have a snare? all they can do late game is recrew. or ass engies are also 280mp and they can only lay mines and repair. units that peak early do not scale as well into the late game, even less so against more expensive units designed to peak later. even more so when they get literally everything they need including support from a single natural tech up. if you want volks to scale better they need dramatic changes including not getting support, weapons, snares and nades for free. you get what you pay for and basicly all you pay for volks IS 260mp and 60mu. they start generating value significantly sooner, but they are capped lower as a result
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
or close against weaker targets. because their weapon is flexible it allows they to sit at range if they have to or close and benefit if possible. it also means that units that close on them are getting punished by increasing volks dps.
so volks with a 60 mu upgrade will lose against elite infantry or more expensive infantry with equal or greater muni investment and an actual unlock fee for thir weapons. i really hadnt thought of it that way. we should tell relic that you SHOULDNT get what you pay for...
your comparison would make a lot more sense if the soviet started with a shock squad, unlocked the maxim along with ppshs, AT nade and molitov just for teching up once and got guards at t4 but they dont. its literally impossible to not have all the support you for volks from AT infantry, to suppression to AI specialist.
Posts: 5279
All units can close against weaker targers, but again, good luck closing against even weaker upgraded rifles\tommies, even if you force them to reatreat you would shortly retreat your volks aswell. And if enemy squad is so badly unjured, then with or without STG you can try to get push.
well i suppose its a great thing that volks can heal up on the field then isnt it? also if they can force a more expensive squad to retreat that is STILL a win. you seem to be under the impression that the only wayfor volks to chalk up a win is to wipe the enemy unit while also taking no damage and that simply will not happen. if a 260/60 unit can force a 280/120 unit to retreat you have won even if you too have to retreat.
There is zero flexability. You are thinking from a excel sheet perpective. In a reality all so called "flexability" and "close range DPS" is jokingly low to be even considered a major thing. Its a 1 in a 1000 scenario, where StG volks would actually win a fight where without them they would have lost.
if you are facing a long range squad close. if you are facing a close range squad stick in cover and force them to take free damage. its not spreadsheet perspective its how the fucking unit is supposed to be used. they ARE flexible regardless of how you feel about it. a player with ppsh cons cant realisticly sit behind cover with their 3 nagants if they are facing pgrens and lmg grens dont get to decide they want to close if they are fighting lmg paras.
They wont lose against elite inf, they litteraly would lose against everything, if its not fresh ungunned unit.
so the sort of thing they are facing when their stg upgrade hits the field (along with access to their snare, and HMG, slightly after their flame nade) ....weird
By your logic, penals shouldnt win against obersoldaten like at all or grens shouldnt win against guards, because "they are more expensive". This is stupid aurgument, every other inf has a sweet spot range or a way where they can more or less effectively engage more expensive squads\upgraded units. Volks, past mid game, dont have this sweet spot.
penals will get shit canned by obers if you sit at range and dont make use of their FLEXIBLE engagement range capability. penals do NOT have their own "sweet spot" range, just like stg volks they have FLEXIBLE relative positioning. see where the enemy specializes and do the opposite. you have that power.
Except it has nothing to do with it. By your logic, volks are shit late game because starting unit is ST, volks are shit in late game because they have early nades and faust for tech. What it has to do with them being not scaling garbage?
no volks lose out late game because they hit their stride sooner. just like the other units were losing out against volks because they hit their stride later this is offset in part by having units to carry them through when they are not top of the food chain. you cant have your cake and eat it too.
Where discution went from "Volks arent scaling into late game" to "Mentioning whole OKW army units to defent volks being weak". I can aswell pick strong sides\units from other armies and base my aurgents on this. This is irrelevant.
its not irrelevant at all. okw has one of the best AI specialists in the game stock, sorry their standard run of the mill infantry dont make them obsolete before they even have a chance to see the field.
And to clear myself, I didnt say that volks need to have same late game powerspike as cons do, in case you again think that i'm saying that volks should become replacement for obersts in late game.
what you are saying is it seems is that despite having elite units stock designed specificly to take up the mantle volks need to continue dunking on more expensive un its AFTER they invest more resources and time into these units, that again volks were beating up after their first tech was built- because its not fair that after investing in sidegrades and extra resources the allied units are pulling ahead (in a similar fashion that volks were for the earlt mid game) am i right?
you cant expect to pull the advantage from 5 min to the end of the game while the other guys are throwing fuel and time at their units to raise their own bar.
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
so the sort of thing they are facing when their stg upgrade hits the field (along with access to their snare, and HMG, slightly after their flame nade) ....weird
no volks lose out late game because they hit their stride sooner. just like the other units were losing out against volks because they hit their stride later this is offset in part by having units to carry them through when they are not top of the food chain. you cant have your cake and eat it too.
they ARE flexible regardless of how you feel about it.
well i suppose its a great thing that volks can heal up on the field then isnt it? also if they can force a more expensive squad to retreat that is STILL a win. you seem to be under the impression that the only wayfor volks to chalk up a win is to wipe the enemy unit while also taking no damage and that simply will not happen. if a 260/60 unit can force a 280/120 unit to retreat you have won even if you too have to retreat.
what you are saying is it seems is that despite having elite units stock designed specificly to take up the mantle volks need to continue dunking on more expensive un its AFTER they invest more resources and time into these units, that again volks were beating up after their first tech was built-
Posts: 449
Posts: 176
@thedarkarmadillo (too lazy to quote)
I believe we have gotten off topic by discussing Volks' scale-bility. I was not arguing that Volks should be buffed because they are garbage late game. I was arguing that Volks StG is not worth the 60 munitions it costs.
Posts: 5279
Posts: 449
to amalgamate some suggestions here:
mech truck unlocks sweeping upgrade
med truck unlocks better version of stg/ an extra stg
schwere frees up a slot
Posts: 783
I mean it's clearly different from other upgrades, especially the other ones available to mainlines. I don't really know what your point is
It's the only stock upgrade cons get and it's locked in the final tier. That by itself sets it far apart from all other mainline upgrades. Then you have it's bonuses which most weapon upgrades don't come with
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
In a previous post you stated that a possible reason conscripts (weapon)DPS was increased at all ranges was because the 7man upgrade is in fact not even a weapon upgrade at all. I was disagreeing with this.
Posts: 783
Yeah to what end? You can call it a weapon upgrade if you want, it's objectively VERY different from most other upgrades. I don't see how you could argue otherwise
Especially for mainline infantry. Literally all 4 of the other mainlines can unlock their upgrades in the early game, and can afford to have it on all their squads by midgame
Compared to other squad size upgrades its pretty reasonable. 5 man grens arrives way earlier, so does Bolster which is a global upgrade
I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade?.....
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