Conscript 7th men too much?

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 17:32 PMSkysTheLimit

Once again it is not a simple fact. In the context of actual gameplay, in which people use feasible build orders and don't just purchase the bare minimum required to tech up, both upgrades are similarly late and could arrive after one another depending on those choices. It's simple if you turn the entire game into a math equation, but that's not what the game is

From the very beginning I have been asking you to point out what relevance those claims even have to the balance of the upgrade. None of the examples you gave are upgrades for mainlins, two of them are doctrinal, and passive bonuses =/= an upgrade

An opinion on how conscripts vs volks perform in a scenario that never actually occurs in a real game? What is the point of your scenario? Again what relevance does it have to the question? You are focusing too much on the tests in a vacuum, that's literally my whole point...

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 17:38 PMVipper

If you do not like cheat mode tests, I suggest you test with friend of yours Vet 3 conscripts vs vet 5 VGS.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 17:43 PMSkysTheLimit

I never said anything close to I don't like cheatmods. I could not have more clearly been talking about your specific scenario that you created. And I said you were focusing too much on the tests, not enough on in-game performance

That is not even close to saying cheatmods are bad. As I have said I played with them and against them in automatch ever since they were added. So has most of the community

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 17:49 PMVipper

Let me clarify because this debate is counter productive. When I tested conscripts vs VG in cheat mode I was actually surprised with result.

The performance was not what expected and in one of the test the Conscripts even managed to beat (7/vet3/cover) the VG (ST44/vet5/cover) without losing a single entity.

I have played the game also and I did not expect such results.

You want to test yourself go ahead and do it, you do not want to test do not, it is fine by me.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:17 PMSkysTheLimit

And I'll ask the same question I have been asking the whole time, what is the relevance of this test? How does a max range fight in cover tell us anything about the upgrades?

One of them is designed to be used in cover, the other is a midrange upgrade that makes them better at assaulting. What is the point of testing them in a scenario that already favors one of the upgrades?

Have I not made it clear why I'm not doing the test? Again, the specific test (NOT tests in general) seems completely pointless

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

Sorry now... Why shouldn't vet 3 7 man cons behind cover beat vet 5 volks with stgs behind cover?

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

Vip you, like me, are always advocating for a return of preferred ranges. Rifles are long range, stgs are not.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

You are not usually one to demand purposefully one side tests, and you know full well the stg brings other advantages such as dps on the move, centralized DPS and a fuck lot more time to generate value. What's more, vet 3 (and 7 man) cons are explicitly supposed to be durable. Coupled with cover... No shit they are tough to dig out with small arms of any sort. That's their purpose. We could compare Vetted cons and Vetted volks ability to self heal outside of combat if we would like another one sided comparison.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

As for the timing of 7 man, it can be rushed, at great cost to the soviet player and GREATLY inflating the cost of cons (as it's 3 manpower and fuel upgrades that ONLY effect conscripts the resources paid can directly be applied and divided across the number of conscripts) but at any rate, as it's an opportunity "bonus" I hardly count that timing as standard. . It's like arguing the timing of obers if the okw player builds med, doesn't buy flak, or medics and rushes schwere. Yes it's possible but it's not the norm.

And if you WOULD like to consider the rushed t3 version as the timing to go off of you should also make note of the inflated cost associated with it- rushing it means it still comes much later than gren lmgs, volks stgs and fussie g43s as well as WFA allies weapon racks while also costing much more in both required teching costs AND extra side teching costs. The upgrade is effective because it's expensive in both resources and time.

In regards to ostroppen lmg hitting later... Congrats? I hardly count doctrinal supplementary infantry when discussing mainline infantry but I guess it does come later. Not sure what you want from me here.... And even then, you often comment on how large squads shouldn't have lmg because it ends up being very effecient due to DPS concentration. Being able to knock off half a squad and barely impact their output is a huge boom and certainly shouldnt be exceptional on a squad as cheap and peripheral as ostroppen.

I don't want to argue Symantecs with you as you know exactly what I meant saying cons 7 man comes the absolute latest of all upgrades. The timing/ cost efficient levels matter on mainline when you consider the enemy got "theirs" a long while ago and has been generating increased value for some time.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 19:32 PMVipper

Not without losing a single entity as they did in one of the tests. May issue is not that they won but the margin with which they won.

how pray tell do you plan to fix RNG? thats ALWAYS a possibility, especially when the number of models are higher on one side than the other, doubly so when those models are benifiting from reduced target size AND a damage reduction and facing a unit armed with a burst style weapon like an stg where the damage is spread over multiple shots. that said ive had tommies beat sturms without dropping a model and i have had sturms beat tommies without dropping a model. unless you script the models to prioritize wounded men first i see no way to guarantee one way or another and that could open up a host of new issues and frankly might even increase the efficiency of soviet infa try as they wouldnt have to retreat for heals and instead could just get fresh men..


That would be true if ST44 where actually designed as an assault rifle. St 44 volks use are closer to G43 and their long range DPS is about equal with K98.

how does its close range DPS stack up against a k98 though? that would be a great indicator on if its a close range or a long range upgrade. its no surprise that an upgrade designed to excel in aggressive play loses to one tailored for a unit designed to win attrition style combat. relative positioning matters.

In other words you have VG which was designed to fight long range (they would lose regardless if they had St44 or not) and a conscripts who where designed to fight mid to far and conscripts win easily (as far as I have tested).

but they were not designed to fight long range. if they were they would have a different upgrade.
tommies were designed to fight in long range, they have lmgs, grens were designed to fight at long range, they too have an lmg. guards were designed to fight at long range they ALSO have an lmg. these units cannot use their weapon on the move, as they are supposed to plink away in cover fights. (some elite infatry have elite lmgs that can be used on the move but they are exceptions. even then however their long range dps is bolstered dramatically)

the stg on the other hand is more like the g43, like you said, or the BAR or other semi autos, all CAN be used at range but are designed for mobility boasting a higher ROF and moving accuracy.
volks are not long range infantry. relative positioning allows these units to fight units worse at range than they are but they will lose at units that are better at range and worse up close. this is literally an example of the infantry combat we have both been striving for... 7 men with rifles absolutely SHOULD win in a long range fight against 5 men with an upgrade that makes them fantastic in the mid - close range (comparatively)

They also won in some close range fights

likely by a much closer margin, as RNG is RNG. however,i have no doubt that stg volks won in close range more than they lost, despite fighting 40% more models. thats beacuse their upgrade ISNT a long range upgrade, even if it does marginally increase their long range output.


I suggest you do what ever test you think are relevant and see what happens because I for one was surprised we the test I did.

you could test a JT against a jackson and if you dont use the jacksons mobility or abilities it will certainly be a very one sided fight likewise ignoring that stg volks are much better up close AND can deny cover while closing and fighting it out in a way that cons are expected to excel is beneath you.


I will not even go into this argument (about latest) because it has been blown out of proportion for no good reason.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 19:24 PMVipper

Do what ever test you see appropriate.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 21:24 PMVipper

I have expressed my opinion about the VG ST44 many times and have little to add.

If in your opinion the result are effected by RNG run the test yourself or test the match with friend in "real game" situation and see how many times VG can win the fight. You might be surprised.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 22:13 PMthedarkarmadillo

I'm not doubting that they lose, but that the range of which is RNG. there are variables in a real game that offset this balance as well-for example the odds of cons being full HP are lower than that of the volks due to the nature of factional healing differences--this is swung further when volks receive max vet. The superiority of the lava nade range and throw speed) is also a factor in a real game. If cons ha e to move (say from the afformentioned lava nade) their dps suffers greater than stg vols do.

However all that is a tangent. The discussion was based on the 7 man over performing. The fact of the matter volks and cons are more or less balanced until volks get the stg at which point they are undeniably superior in terms of combat. Then many minutes later when cons get their upgrade they themselves get the edge. There is nothing wrong with that.
I can't see how volks having an advantage at every range after their first tech building (where they will also have their flame nade and snare unlocked while cons will have to pay extra for these) is fine but cons flipping that after their final building is an issue when there was half a game between those two points in time where cons were fighting an uphill battle.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

Why shouldn't vet 3 7 man cons behind cover beat vet 5 volks with stgs behind cover?

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 00:49 AMGachiGasm

Well, to be fair, they kinda shoudn't. I mean, realistically speaking, vet 5 volks in general have much greater value and efford put in to obtain.
Not to mention that its not a secret that vetting another volks squad past mid game is almost impossible. So if you lost your vetted volks, they are gone, thats it, you wont be able to vet another squad most likely. Vet3 7-men Cons have much lesser value as a unit, they requare less efford to replace, considering vet bonuses and so on.

But its not nessesry 7-men cons problem, but rather volks and StGs are overall garbage. They have small powerspike, with early StGs but aside from that they are expensive meatshield for something else. At least cons with upgrade become something self-sufisticated for late game, while volks perfomance boost ends in mid game completly.

One might say its their design, to protect more elite inf and provide additional damage, but still its a bad way to do a unit.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 15:15 PMSkysTheLimit

I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade? You will find a similar phenomena with 5 man grens. Or bolster

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 00:49 AMGachiGasm

Well, to be fair, they kinda shoudn't. I mean, realistically speaking, vet 5 volks in general have much greater value and efford put in to obtain.
Not to mention that its not a secret that vetting another volks squad past mid game is almost impossible. So if you lost your vetted volks, they are gone, thats it, you wont be able to vet another squad most likely. Vet3 7-men Cons have much lesser value as a unit, they requare less efford to replace, considering vet bonuses and so on.

But its not nessesry 7-men cons problem, but rather volks and StGs are overall garbage, not in a vacuum, but rather in global picture.

They do have small powerspike, with early StGs but aside from that they are expensive meatshield for something else. At least cons with upgrade become something self-sufisticated for late game, while volks perfomance boost ends in mid game completly. They kinda represent what cons were actually.

One might say its their design, to protect more elite inf and provide additional damage, but still its a bad way to do a unit.

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 01:00 AMSpoof

I really can't comprehend why 2 StGs costs 60 munitions. For fuck's sake, I feel like even a single Bren gun is more worth it since it's long range and fits with the Lee-Enfields, and it only costs 45 munitions.

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 04:30 AMSerrith

Neither bolster nor 5 man grens upgrades the damage output of the stock weapons.


The 7man upgrade does upgrade conscript weapon dps. Id call that a weapon upgrade.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:50 PMthedarkarmadillo

Sorry now... Why shouldn't vet 3 7 man cons behind cover beat vet 5 volks with stgs behind cover?

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 00:49 AMGachiGasm

Well, to be fair, they kinda shoudn't. I mean, realistically speaking, vet 5 volks in general have much greater value and efford put in to obtain.

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 00:49 AMGachiGasm

Well, to be fair, they kinda shoudn't.

Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 08:40 AMT.R. Stormjäger

They should kick the shit out of Volks regardless of range vet whatever. Volks have assault rifles, techless nades, techless snares, and a way more lethal faction with Leigs, Spios, Obers, KT, P4s etc. There's no scenario whatsoever in which Volks should beat 7man Cons in a ranged firefight. They can win if you outnumber cons or if you come off a sight blocker and get close when the fight starts to use the flame nade to get them out of cover, that's plenty. In all the other scenarios, support your Volks and use your brain.