So...my Tiger kept bouncing against a KV-1

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between them a marginally better reload speed of KV-1?

Yeah that's correct. According to the stats site KV1 reload is 5.2-5.8 seconds, t34 is 6.1 seconds. Every other stat is identical

Edit: whoops someone beat me to it

Unvetted - best to worst
Vet 0 SU85
7/(220/300)*5.65 = 53.93

Vet 0 JP4
7/(170/289)*5 = 59.5

[…]

Anyway, it's closer than I thought

It's even closer when you use the raw number of shots x reload (so 9.54 becomes 10 shots etc), with ~56.5s vs 60s in this example. Anyway my point was simply that people often think the StuG and JP4 are way worse than Allied TDs versus heavies when this is not really the case, as their higher ROF really does make up for the lack of pen in a prolonged engagement.

Main problem with all the KVs, that they are not CP caped and can be rushed. This is honestly retarded, that both KVs have timings of a first premium medium tank.

I wouldnt mind it having armor and ability to be a fat bastard, but at least with churchill timings.

StuG and JP4 are way worse than Allied TDs versus heavies when this is not really the case, as their higher ROF really does make up for the lack of pen in a prolonged engagement.

Highter ROF means nothing, if a target is not 640HP medium and half of your shots wont penetrate them. If there is prolonged engagement, where heavy tank sits underfire of a TDs and let alone be killed, its just a badplay.

Stug\JP4 are more of a medium tank TDs, which can do very good against them and be cost effective, against heavy tanks they are honestly kinda garbage if you compare them to allied TDs.

Not to mention that technically stug is not even a TD, I belive it has penetration of a premium medium.

Highter ROF means nothing, if a target is not 640HP medium and half of your shots wont penetrate them. If there is prolonged engagement, where heavy tank sits underfire of a TDs and let alone be killed, its just a badplay.

Stug\JP4 are more of a medium tank TDs, which can do very good against them and be cost effective, against heavy tanks they are honestly kinda garbage if you compare them to allied TDs.

There is a post literally 3 posts before yours that proves (with all the stats) that higher ROF does matter, and that it quite easily compensates for the lower penetration. Alpha strikes obviously go in favour of the higher pen TDs, but given how killing or forcing back a heavy generally requires a prolonged engagement, the JP4/StuG are basically just as good as their Allied counterparts on average.

The StuG and JP4 are primarily medium/TD counters, but they can hold their own against heavies just as well simply due to superior raw DPM.

Not to mention that technically stug is not even a TD, I belive it has penetration of a premium medium.

… the StuG and the JP4 have exactly the same penetration.

It's even closer when you use the raw number of shots x reload (so 9.54 becomes 10 shots etc), with ~56.5s vs 60s in this example. Anyway my point was simply that people often think the StuG and JP4 are way worse than Allied TDs versus heavies when this is not really the case, as their higher ROF really does make up for the lack of pen in a prolonged engagement.

Prolonged engagement is the keyword there.

Hard to keep the 50 range Stug in a prolonged engagement, unless you really commit to killing the tank, because it's easier for supportive units to get in range against it.

OKW's JP4 is the hardest to use. It has bad mobility and low pen, which are contradictory to each other and make it more defensively oriented than other TD's.

Axis TD's aren't really worse, but definitely harder to use effectively. There's of course the Panther as alternative, which makes up for the weaknesses and hard-to-use-ness of Axis TD's with high mobility and durability, but with the same firepower and much higher resource and pop requirement that can make it hard to fit in.

There is a post literally 3 posts before yours that proves (with all the stats) that higher ROF does matter, and that it quite easily compensates for the lower penetration.

It does, but not when fighing heavies. Again, lets not sit in vacum, with heavy tank sitting under fire and fighint 1v1.

Reliable penetration, is more importand against hevies, because sooner your damage them, the earliest they will back off to be repaired + reliable penetrations means more reliable and fast vetting for your TD.

Main role of TD is to force tanks back ASAP, not nessesry kill them, but not allow them to stay\push\shoot\soak damage for a long time. ROF of JP\Stug isnt compinsating lack of penetration.

… the StuG and the JP4 have exactly the same penetration.

Yeah, re-checked it in attrib. Probably when I was checking stats, I checked wrong unit.

Main role of TD is to force tanks back ASAP, not nessesry kill them, but not allow them to stay\push\shoot\soak damage for a long time. ROF of JP\Stug isnt compinsating lack of penetration.

And what exactly do you think is the role of damage sponge unit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between them a marginally better reload speed of KV-1?

Yes, that's at least a 10% buff to the gun.
My point is more that it is quite embarrassing to mock lack of stat knowledge to rip on people and then not even being correct in it yourself.

What do u mean by distribution curve? Since we have the probability of pene already in already in pene/armor.

Every shot is a coin toss. The real hit chance is impossible to calculate due to the lack of knowledge about in game hit boxes, but the penetration chance is easy. Both follow Bernoulli distributions though.
To make it short: although the expectancy values like in your formula are good indicators, they don't give the full picture. A glass cannon tank with 100% pen chance that can only take one hit dueling a beefy tank with 10% pen chance that can take 10 shots will still lose in >60% of cases, although their expectancy value is exactly the same - 10 shots to kill the enemy

And what exactly do you think is the role of damage sponge unit?

What it has to do with JP\Stug penetration? Point is being that your so called "damage sponge" arrives when there is nothing on the field aside AT gun wall, which can reliably deal damage to the damage sponge.

Aside from that, everything is cool.

im sorry but i have never had a problem when someone builds a kv1 or even more than one. its slow as hell can take alot of damage but personally vetting it takes really long and when i use it mid to late game it battles to pen late game axis tanks. its just bad RNG tbh.

Sorry to create such a prolonged discussion.

And mainly posters were right on here; it was just a pissed off rant from a guy that watched 3 bounces. Incidentally, during the exchange, my Tiger bounced once. The KV-1 came out first.

I think someone called it about the timing of the KV-1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but rushing Tigers isn't really a thing anymore, mainly because of the nerf right? I never did that when it was a thing because it disrupted the balance of my army.

If so, there's really no reason for KV-1's to come out so early now.

Anyway, I'll attribute it to bad RNG, go for a panther instead for flanking manuevers, and move on.

I'm hoping you are not as dense as this post made you out to be.

Is the KV-1 able to Kill all Axis mediums tanks, including the premium mediums like the PzIV J?
yes KV-1 has chance to win even if it is flanked.

Then your sentence:
"Is it AT medium+ capable? No"

is simply wrong.

Even if you want to talk about being supported the KV-1 is simply superior to the PzIV since it can take allot more punishment while its supporting units can dish out the damage.

Ok you are not as dense. However, my point is not that it's not sturdy or whatever. That all stands. KV1 is by all accounts superior to both P4s. And it's not AT+ capable. AT+ capable units are T34-85, ZiS, Pak, Raketen, JP4, Stug, Panther, Jackson, E8/76, M4, etc. Those units are AT+ capable. It does NOT mean that KV1 can't go against any tank; heck, my elefant was once taken down by 3 KV1s in a really fun 1.30h game. You can use KV1 to take down P4s, but you usually won't since it's not as easy and you might run into a wild Pak or raketen or a wild untamed faust. If I'm understanding it correctly, you say that it's AT capable because it can go toe to toe with other tanks thanks to it's sturdiness... which is correct, but not my point.

My point is the following:

You are going against 5 targets. Let's say that they linearly scale with survivability and inversely proportional to their damage output.
So unit 1 has 1000 hp and 100 dmg
Unit 2 800 hp and 200 dmg
3 600/300
4 400/400
5 200/500

You are going against those units. Now in an average MMORPG or RPG or whatever, the unit one would have some sort of AGGRO skill that would FORCE you to engage it for a fixed amount of time. It's a tank, it can take punishment but also survive it. Unit 5 goes down easily but also takes down easily.

KV1 is the unit 1 in such conditions, but without the Aggro skill. It's damage output vs tanks is inferior to other Axis tanks, medium or otherwise. So, as an axis player, if you can you will not try to focus KV1 down first, because you know it won't massacre your vehicles like SU85 or something like that will. What you will do, I hope, is start taking down units that are easy to take down, one by one (I think it's self evident why taking down units one by one is better than letting everyone shoot at everything). So KV1 will have supporting infantry and your P4 will have supporting infantry and KV1 will probably fire at your supporting infantry but you won't make the mistake of trying to fire your P4 at KV1, instead if you have a pak or shrecks, you will use them, but only if KV1 is solo, if KV1 also has T34 close by, you focus T34 first.

So, while KV1 is a great tank, superior to stock P4s due to the fact that it's tanky AF, it doesn't have enough firepower vs tanks to make it a menace.

And if your shrecks bounce, well it's just tough luck and the RNG gods were not on your side (does not mean it's armour is too high), because the penetration chance is high enough vs it for the role it's playing. Same as how elefant and jagdtiger are expensive AF but also hard to take down with 400 frontal armour. You lose some, you win some.

... It's damage output vs tanks is inferior to other Axis tanks, medium or otherwise...

A KV-1 firing on:
OKW PzIV has 14.2/11.4/8.9/6.7/4.7 DPS
Ostheer PzIV 18.6/14.9/11.6/8.7/6.2 DPS


A PzIV firing on KV-1 has:
12.9/12.4/10.7/8.7/6.8 DPS

Now unless you want to argue that PzIV is also not AT+ capable your argument hold no water at all.

A KV-1 firing on:
OKW PzIV has 14.2/11.4/8.9/6.7/4.7 DPS
Ostheer PzIV 18.6/14.9/11.6/8.7/6.2 DPS


A PzIV firing on KV-1 has:
12.9/12.4/10.7/8.7/6.8 DPS

Now unless you want to argue that PzIV is also not AT+ capable your argument hold no water at all.

I give up trying to reason with you, it's not getting through. One is a doctrinal heavy tank, other is a generalist medium.
"Now unless you want to argue that PzIV is also not AT+ capable"

Now read it a couple of times. You are comparing AT capability of a stock medium unit that usually goes against Shermans and T34 and Cromwells (which it will win against, most of the time or at least scare away, especially the OKW version, OST less so), with a doctrinal heavy tank. It's not a question whether KV1 has AT capability compared to P4 vs KV1. Is that so hard to understand? The point is you are can not directly compare those units. What you can do is put KV1 in a usual scenario and see how it fares. Same as P4.

So for the last time.
You should not directly compare DPS KV1 vs P4 and vice versa. Saying that P4 is not AT capable because it's not reliable vs a doctrinal heavy tank... well, all discussions end there. And even the DPS info you gave, they only differ on the closest range, that is the Δp (penetration difference max-close range) since it's largest on KV1 Δp=40 while for P4 Δp=15.

That's a substantial difference in penetration, but since KV1 is not a tank killer, justified (neither is P4 but cheaper and better still).

Still, I will say this, using the argument of KV1 firing on P4 and P4 on KV1, and their DPS, is low. Completely irrelevant and out of context. Shame on you.

I give up trying to reason with you, it's not getting through. One is a doctrinal heavy tank, other is a generalist medium.
...
You should not directly compare DPS KV1 vs P4 and vice versa. Saying that P4 is not AT capable because it's not reliable vs a doctrinal heavy tank
...
Still, I will say this, using the argument of KV1 firing on P4 and P4 on KV1, and their DPS is low. Completely irrelevant and out of context. Shame on you.

Yeah sounds logical, but there is one small flow in here. KV1 has rufly same timing of PIV, so there is reason to compare them. Because realistacally by the KV1 arrival time, in terms of armor, it will face only 1 PIV\Stug\JP4 and 1 AT gun and neither of them can effectively hold it back.

Its the same way if Tiger would have been awaible when you have your first medium. There is simply nothing on the field that can effectively hold an army having a heavy tank by that time, because even if you invest into double AT guns (one wont cut it) and even inf based AT weaponary, your enemy will snowball and have upper hand in terms of AI overall, economy and field presence.

Yeah sounds logical, but there is one small flow in here. KV1 has rufly same timing of PIV, so there is reason to compare them. Because realistacally by the arrival time KV1 in terms of armor will face only 1 PIV\Stug\JP4 and neither of them can effectively fight it.

Its the same way if Tiger would have been awaible when you have your first medium. There is simply nothing on the field that can effectively hold an army having a heavy tank by that time, because even if you invest into double AT guns (one wont cut it) and even inf based AT weaponary, your enemy will snowball and have upper hand in terms of AI overall economy and field presence.

Are you sure? It's been a couple of weeks since I played COH2 but isn't KV1 locked behind T4 + 145 fuel? JP4 and Stug won't necessarily kill it but will certainly damage it and scare it away.

Still I see the flaw I skipped, and I salute you for correcting me. If they do indeed come at roughly the same time then you could compare them in terms of what they are going up against. Then the KV1 would have a bit more advantage as the Axis player would HAVE to field Pak/raketen to deal with it reliably (or shrecks to scare away). In teamgames, that timing would not be of any value or importance, especially in 3v3 and 4v4 (self evident), but I guess in 1v1s KV1 could be a pretty power-spike....... which would return us to that old problem: How to balance 1v1 along with 3v3 and 4v4 (IMHO, who ever gets it right deserves a medal)

...You are comparing AT capability of a stock medium unit that usually goes against Shermans and T34 and Cromwells ...

I am pretty sure PzIV goes also up against Churchills/Comets/Dozer Sherman/Dozer 105/Easy8s/T-34/85/KV-1s/KV-8s almost as often and thus is also "not AT+ capable" according to your own definition.

Are you sure? It's been a couple of weeks since I played COH2 but isn't KV1 locked behind T4 + 145 fuel? JP4 and Stug won't necessarily kill it but will certainly damage it and scare it away.

It is, but still. Single Stug\JP4 isnt really a threat for it, since it cant pen reliably, at least Ost can try geting 2 PaKs.

Still I see the flaw I skipped, and I salute you for correcting me. If they do indeed come at roughly the same time then you could compare them in terms of what they are going up against. Then the KV1 would have a bit more advantage as the Axis player would HAVE to field Pak/raketen to deal with it reliably (or shrecks to scare away).

Thing is, Axis player need more then that to scare it away. This was my point. If you need to scare it away it requare huge resources investments, which allows soviet to snowball insanly good.

In teamgames, that timing would not be of any value or importance, especially in 3v3 and 4v4 (self evident), but I guess in 1v1s KV1 could be a pretty power-spike....... which would return us to that old problem: How to balance 1v1 along with 3v3 and 4v4 (IMHO, who ever gets it right deserves a medal)

Techinally it still the same for 3v3, but more with KV-8, but still its the same in general. I was maining OKW in 3v3 few month ago, and it was a common situation to fight against KV-1\KV-8 at 11-12th minute of the game. And trust me this is insane.

Point is being, 2v2\3v3 allows you to field more\faster but it also apply to KV. If it arrive early in 1v1, it arrives even earlier in 2v2\3v3 just like any other unit.

Is slow., if you see it coming you can adjust your troops to give him a good welcome in early game., if you dont see it coming., Yeap.. most probably you must retire your entire army because is inmortal in close range so early. maybe a bit broken there., but there always be a way.

i just get my tiger in mid range and depleted his health pool very well
Just try to dont be hitted by SU-85/Zis or engine damage by Conscripts.

What do u mean by distribution curve? Since we have the probability of pene already in already in pene/armor.

There's also a thing called chance to hit. Accuracy/scatter matters too, not just RoF and penetration...