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Is the WC 51 overperforming ?

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A table
12 Aug 2020, 08:08 AM
#121
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Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 14:48 PMthedarkarmadillo


You are wasting your time with codguy mate. Usf could have a nuke that is automatically unlocked after 30 min of game time, destroying the enemy base and he'd make a thread saying it comes too late because usf is the weakest faction in every single way


This is certainly not meant for COmeDic relief guy alone. The WC51 currently offers too much for its price. That does not mean we need to butcher it into late- game irrelevance. So a gentle approach is required to make sure the WC51 is toned down but still a good earlygame unit.

Basic stuff would be to remove crew and its ability to cap points w/o a infantry unit inside, maybe even a minor fuel costs(5 or 10).
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Goldenpunch
12 Aug 2020, 11:52 AM
#122
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Posts: 124

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 18:07 PMmr.matrix300


Hey listen ... I am gonna tell you a little secret. Riflemen can also be upgraded with LMGs. Crazy right ?



Thanks for ad hominem. But no i will not buying. Rifle lmg upgrade is doctrinel only. OST players can always upgrade their grens with mg42.
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CODGUY
13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AM
#123
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 888

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 05:29 AMA table


The WC51 currently has:

- self repair with crew
- a decent HMG that is better than the kubel, can definetly 1v1 most german starting infantry w/o snares
- Can capture points(w/o infantry inside it)
- Mark target
- Arty barrage that can wreck pretty much anything
- for 200 mp available from the start, cheaper than the kubel(slightly)

And this is somehow no issue? Atleast the crew needs to go.


It's not really cheaper than the Kubel at all. It's 200 + 45 munitions for the ability to defend itself, I don't know anyone who doesn't get the upgrade. The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.
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mr.matrix300
13 Aug 2020, 11:26 AM
#124
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AMCODGUY

The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.



Mark the Target is also a big reason
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




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A table
13 Aug 2020, 11:26 AM
#125
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AMCODGUY


It's not really cheaper than the Kubel at all. It's 200 + 45 munitions for the ability to defend itself, I don't know anyone who doesn't get the upgrade. The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.


200 MP is a small price to pay for the package and advantages compared to the kubel(210 mp if i am not mistaken), even if it takes more skill and time to get it to vet 3. The upgrade is there to delay the .50 HMG that can easily drop models of infantry as it is a single entity with great DPS.

Arty barrage is easily more powerfull than the one from major, and it has a decent range too(though you still need to cover it obv). I'd say the risk/reward gives a bit too much reward.

Without arty barrage you still have mark target, that provides decent debuffs against axis armor and is available from the start.

At the very least the crew needs to go. The kubel does less and costs 2.5 seconds of manpower less(40) and cannot self repair w/0 doctrines or vet 3. This is aside from the ridiculousness that a visible crew of 2 creates a 4- man squad when you press T.
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Katitof
13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:26 AMmr.matrix300



Mark the Target is also a big reason

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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mr.matrix300
13 Aug 2020, 12:53 PM
#127
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?



Just because you never saw it being used it doesn't mean that it doesn't get used. It can be a powerful tool especially when combined with the 76 mm Sherman or the Jackson.


Also I did not state that this ability is a problem. I just stated that besides the arty barrage there are also other reasons for building one late game
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




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Serrith
13 Aug 2020, 14:04 PM
#128
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?


I've seen it used. On its own its not a problem, just like the soviet mark vehicle isn't imbalanced. Its the fact that its part of a 200mp package that already offers a ridiculous amount of utility at low cost.
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JulianSnow
13 Aug 2020, 14:42 PM
#129
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

Between the lines I think everyone agrees that this unit is really cheap and more than equally powerful.

Can we move on to change suggestions?
- Who has time? ... But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time? huh?
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elchino7
13 Aug 2020, 15:31 PM
#130
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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mr.matrix300
13 Aug 2020, 16:25 PM
#131
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 15:31 PMelchino7
I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost


This would imo also be the best Option. It is not OP in earlygame because it has mark the target or artillery , but because it has stuff like a very powerful gun, the ability to cap points / carry troops and still comes at a very low cost
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






Playing with randoms





jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not









jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.







jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:11 AMCODGUY
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.







jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2020, 04:14 AMCODGUY
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not







jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2018, 04:21 AMRocket
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.






jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 19:21 PMIncendiaryRounds:)

u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 10:02 AMProtos Angelus


Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken





jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 12:59 PMKatitof

I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you




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Vipper
13 Aug 2020, 16:32 PM
#132
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

I would test the following:

Cost the same or even a slight decrease

Now has shared veterancy

Can now fire flares

Crew removed/mark target removed/155 barrage removed

Range to 35

Gun upgrade removed passenger automatically crew HMG

Passengers do not die on destruction only suppressed maybe take some damage

Can now be "Withdraw and Refit" for a M3
:)
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BetterDead ThanRed
13 Aug 2020, 17:02 PM
#133
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

Vipper.
regarding the 50cal upgrade on the wc51, do you mean you cannot carry squads anymore? do that and wc51 seems alot less tempting to use.
wc51 has a limited usage early game unless you go 2-3+, it needs to be good for those 5+ minutes until axis goes 222/rak/PZgrens+zooks/pak40.

like the flare ability
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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MMX
13 Aug 2020, 17:15 PM
#134
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 15:31 PMelchino7
I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost


i'd also rather see the early game performance adjusted than any of the late game abilities removed. kind of perplexing that so many people think what had been almost universally recognized as good unit design for light vehicles, i.e. lowered initial power spike but increased utility especially in later stages of the game, should not apply to the wc51 for some reason.
i'd just lower the long range dps and/or range and see from there. if that still proves insufficient a slight cost increase either for the unit itself or the upgrade might be enough to reduce its early game impact without nerfing the truck back into oblivion.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
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Vipper
13 Aug 2020, 17:24 PM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 17:02 PMBetterDead ThanRed
Vipper.
regarding the 50cal upgrade on the wc51, do you mean you cannot carry squads anymore? do that and wc51 seems alot less tempting to use.
wc51 has a limited usage early game unless you go 2-3+, it needs to be good for those 5+ minutes until axis goes 222/rak/PZgrens+zooks/pak40.

like the flare ability

No.

I mean that the HMG is automatically maned when it is carrying a passenger and passenger can still fire as normal.
:)
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BetterDead ThanRed
13 Aug 2020, 17:28 PM
#136
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

nice idea vipper
OST Wehraboo 4v4 main
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Protos Angelus
13 Aug 2020, 17:47 PM
#137
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 16:32 PMVipper
I would test the following:

Cost the same or even a slight decrease

Now has shared veterancy

Can now fire flares

Crew remove/mark target remove/155 barrage remove

Range to 35

Gun upgrade removed passenger automatically crew HMG

Passengers do not die destruction only suppressed maybe take some damage

Can now be "Withdraw and Refit" for a M3


These are great prepositions. Crew removed would be best from the 3.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
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FelixTHM
15 Aug 2020, 14:43 PM
#138
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 07:31 AMSumi


Exactly! This added to the fact that Axis infantry have the most snares and available from the start while allied infantry lack snares to counter early vehicles. If wc51 was sturdy same could be applied for M20 yet it dies with smoke and over the top speed and barely survives after the 10 min mark. People here have an agenda and they don't wanna see any early game advantage for allies coz they wanna have them all.



This is factually wrong in every way. The amount of ignorance in your post is truly horrifying. Before you say something so monumentally stupid, you might want to actually try playing both sides. I have 1500 games as Allies and 1600 as Axis, and actually understand the situations all factions face, unlike players who have only ever played USF.

Axis literally have no early game ultra lights apart from the doctrinal 221 which can't transport units, costs fuel, can't repair itself, can't cap, and comes out two minutes later. It also has such ridiculously bad armour that 2 squads can just run towards it and force the 221 to escape. And of course, Kubels (which hardly even fight) are not even a threat to combat engineers in cover.

So many brainless players idiotically parrot the "oh Grens start with faust" line as if it's some amazing advantage. The fact that Ost need early game snares to even play the game is because every Allied faction has game-ending ultra lights that come out 1:30 to 2:00. Soviet, USF, and Brit ultra lights which come out at 1:30 to 2:00 can either inflict insane bleed (10+ kills) or outright chasedown wipe infantry at will.

Allies don't need early game snares since Axis has no actual early game ultra lights. Literally the earliest stock Axis light vehicle is the 222 which comes out at 4:30 to 5:00. The doctrinal Ost clown car comes in at about 4:00 to 4:30. Axis light vehicle pressure in the first 5 minutes is virtually non-existent; it's not as if gated snares were causing USF or Soviets to die to 3 minute clown car chasedowns.

If Grens didn't start with faust it would be Soviet T1 into M3 into auto-win in the first 5 minutes of every Sov-Ost matchup. OKW got the raketen in T0 to balance the fact that they have no faust.


If OKW or Ost had a WC51 equivalent, every Allied faction could start with T0 snares for free and it wouldn't matter. The Axis-WC51 would just bleed Allied infantry to death from 45 range while avoiding snares, just like they do right now. And we'd be back to the same discussion, except that maybe finally Allies-only players would concede that the WC51 is way too good for its cost.
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FelixTHM
15 Aug 2020, 14:59 PM
#139
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?


I mean, you have also "never seen it win games" even though VonIvan literally popularised the doctrine by winning an entire series in a tournament using WC51 abuse, and it's one of the most popular picks in 1 v 1, especially vs OKW, and is only overshadowed by Recon Support.

The WC51 is wildly overperforming, but the rest of the doctrine is only so-so. I would prefer improving the rest of the doctrine and making the WC51 more reasonable. It can still be the best ultra light because it's doctrinal, but it shouldn't be this godlike.

As always, only the usual CODGUY-level extremists think that an M3 clown car with the best mobility in game and can garrison Cav Riflemen or regular Rifles for chasedown wipes, that doesn't cost fuel, doesn't require screwing yourself over by going t1, arrives earlier and has no tech or CP requirements, can cap, can self-repair, has free nitro boost, and a high dps MG which outranges infantry - apparently that's not wildly overperforming.

When you compare the Kubel, the m3, the UC, and the 221, you see a nice balance of unique strengths and weaknesses.

Kubel is cheap, mobile, and can cap, BUT Low dps, can't really fire on the move, and can't garrison squads or do much else.
M3 has good mobility, good damage and can garrison units for chasedown wipes, BUT costs fuel, requires the building of the extremely unattractive Sov T1, can't cap or self-repair.
UC has good damage and decent armour as well as useful upgrades, BUT can't garrison squads, upgrade locked behind tech, poor maneuverability, higher cost, can't cap.
221 has good mobility, good damage, and a good upgrade, BUT can't garrison squads, costs fuel, can't cap, and is tech-gated in terms of timing.
https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198011657296
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elchino7
15 Aug 2020, 17:31 PM
#140
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2020, 14:59 PMFelixTHM
snip


Which is why the adjustments should be done to it's early performance.

The point was that mark target (which doesn't even modify dmg) and artillery are not the reason the unit is been used nor that it generally survives or get's rebuild in the late game to use this abilities.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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