M4A3 76mm Sherman V E8 Sherman

LOL. E8 AT tank? m10 wovlerine has better penetration, light tank destroyer better then E8.

Wait. Are you serious?!? The tank destroyer.. It has more pen than the tank? I don- I WONT belive it God damn it! There is no way in HELL Relic would fuck up THAT bad and make a unit, who's only job is to shoot at tanks and nothing more better at the job than an AT tank that can also bounce shells and fight infantry. It's not possible.

I'm not one to talk about gating the balance forum but holy shit does this make me come close to jumping camps. Like seriously. The AT only vehicle has more pen than the AT focused generalist tank. REALLY?

I'm guessing the other AT focused Sherman (the one in the comparison stats at the start of the OP) isn't actually an AT unit either because the E8 has more pen than that and only ~10% less than when it's using HVAP. I swear if you were any denser it wouldn't matter what kinda TD was on the field I'd strap your noggin on the front of my tanks cause sweet fuck all will get through it.

The problem with the E8 is two fold. Firstly. It's an AT tank. No at tank will ever really be attractive for usf because of the Jackson. Why get an AT tank to brawl when you have the Jackson that makes it no contest? Why would you pick a doctrine for a unit you wouldn't pick if it was stock? Seriously you slap any and every single allied AT vehicle in the game into usf major building and not a single one would ever get built because you have the Jackson

Second- the Panther. The Panther was supposed to be an escalation of tech vehicle. When your p4 was out matched by volume you aim for a Panther whuch could take the extra punch and dish it back. But panthers are a dime a dozen and easier to get than ever. This leaves Sherman AT variants, even if you ever would want to get a non Jackson AT vehicle, or obsolete.

If the Jackson perhaps wasn't designed to counter every size of armour and instead just heavy Armour LIKE panthers, you may see the occasional E8, 76mm, m10 but until that day, which will never come, half of the usf call in armour's only job is to reduce the number of doctrinal abilities in their respective commanders.

Let's not turn this into a "Jackson OP" thread.
Jackson's firepower is fine as it is, it needs no buffs or nerfs. E8 is not an AT tank. It's jack of all trades. Panthers should counter it. If Jackson was in any way nerfed (firepower), Panthers would roll over USF in teamgames. Tank destroyers should counter every size of armour, hence the name. They are not called "Heavy tank destroyers" or "Light tank destroyers". Relic did a good thing here (and further balance through years). Gave Axis better tanks altogether and gave Allies better tank destroyers.

E8 needs a slight price increase and AI buff to go with it to make it viable and give it the "Jack of all trades" identity.

Right now E8s are good for:
- Alpha strikes
- Strikes en masse (2+)
- Flanks
Squadrons can also take out infantry if all are upgraded with MG but that's quite expensive.

Times that I have taken the Rifle Commander I used E8s as a flanking machine. Get 3 of them, and rush them over a flank. Shoot at usual mine positions beforehand or send echelons. Maps like Steppes and Whiteball are good for that. Redball and "lane-y" maps are bad. Maps that are elongated favor heavy tank pushes and heavy tank destroyers.

Again it's back to what I think is the main problem with balance: Map design (still E8s need price increase/AI buff).

Let's not turn this into a "Jackson OP" thread.
Jackson's firepower is fine as it is, it needs no buffs or nerfs.

regardless how you feel about it, having the jackson in its current state makes any armour designed to fight against enemy tanks redundant. the 76mm, the E8 and the m10 are clear examples of units that simply do not exist in meta because there is absoulty no place for them as the jackson will do everyhting an anything they can do to enemy armour better and without a doctrine. its poor design.

E8 is not an AT tank. It's jack of all trades. Panthers should counter it.

it doesnt matter what you think the E8 is, its stats say it IS an AT vehcle. not entirely of course, its abit more generalist than a panther, but its "job" was to be USFs "heavy" medium more like a comet. it was the only tank in their roster that could brawl with enemy p4s and come out on top. it was a contrasting direction to the old jackson, who couldnt take hits at all. furehter more panthers WILL counter it. the idea is that the E8 can still whop p4s and with help fight panthers. the idea of the E8 is to make the enemy NEED panthers. becuase the game is dynamic and build orders should need to be tweaked depending on what the enemy brings against you.... much in contrast to the live jackson who will be used if the enemy spams pumas or stugs or p4s and panthers. brumbar to KT all you will ever build and all you need to ever build is a jackson.

If Jackson was in any way nerfed (firepower), Panthers would roll over USF in teamgames.

reread why i said about the jackson, specificly this bit riiiiiight here:

If the Jackson perhaps wasn't designed to counter every size of armour and instead just heavy Armour LIKE panthers, you may see the occasional E8, 76mm, m10

pray tell, how will the usf struggle against panthers exactly if the jacksons performance against panthers isnt changed? panther was the only example i gave...
the idea is that for non panther like units, its more cost effecient to useone of the man many other AT options usf has. much like the rit firefly who, while able to engage all targets is incredibly poor at solo play against mediums, it needs support of other elements or it is vulnerable

Tank destroyers should counter every size of armour, hence the name. They are not called "Heavy tank destroyers" or "Light tank destroyers". Relic did a good thing here (and further balance through years).

and thats where you are wrong. there needs to be counterplay. tactical decisions. the jackson shouldnt be the answer to everything the enemy fields from kublewagen to jagdtiger. and the fact that it is is EXACLT why you will never see the 76mm, E8 or m10 in any sort of match ever.

whats more.... um... puma...su76..... m10..... light/ medium TDs.... and um... elefant...jagdtiger.... heavy TDs. the former lack the raw puch to upscale vs heavy armour and the latter are extremely cost inefficient fighting lighter vehicles. there should not be a one size fits all TD as it cuts they very important dynamic gameplay and leads to something silly like singlehandedly making 3 doctrines have 20% less ability slots.

E8 needs a slight price increase and AI buff to go with it to make it viable and give it the "Jack of all trades" identity.

E8 needs a role of its own, "no role at all" isnt a role. it will be competing for the most flexible and jackest of all trades tanks in the game- the m4 so unless you plan on buffing it back to where it was when it was op, jack of all trades is just as awkward as brawler. and equally un-needed while still not fixing the issue with the 76mm or the m10.


the only thing the USF need imo, to compensate a power drop agaimst mediums on the jackson would be for officers to get elite zooks to help sure up the usf medium AT situation. as you are forced into at least 2 officers just to get tanks having the option to have near shrek performance would be more than enough to make up for the jackson losing some teeth. variety is the spice of life

regardless how you feel about it, having the jackson in its current state makes any armour designed to fight against enemy tanks redundant. the 76mm, the E8 and the m10 are clear examples of units that simply do not exist in meta because there is absoulty no place for them as the jackson will do everyhting an anything they can do to enemy armour better and without a doctrine. its poor design.



it doesnt matter what you think the E8 is, its stats say it IS an AT vehcle. not entirely of course, its abit more generalist than a panther, but its "job" was to be USFs "heavy" medium more like a comet. it was the only tank in their roster that could brawl with enemy p4s and come out on top. it was a contrasting direction to the old jackson, who couldnt take hits at all. furehter more panthers WILL counter it. the idea is that the E8 can still whop p4s and with help fight panthers. the idea of the E8 is to make the enemy NEED panthers. becuase the game is dynamic and build orders should need to be tweaked depending on what the enemy brings against you.... much in contrast to the live jackson who will be used if the enemy spams pumas or stugs or p4s and panthers. brumbar to KT all you will ever build and all you need to ever build is a jackson.



reread why i said about the jackson, specificly this bit riiiiiight here:



pray tell, how will the usf struggle against panthers exactly if the jacksons performance against panthers isnt changed? panther was the only example i gave...
the idea is that for non panther like units, its more cost effecient to useone of the man many other AT options usf has. much like the rit firefly who, while able to engage all targets is incredibly poor at solo play against mediums, it needs support of other elements or it is vulnerable




and thats where you are wrong. there needs to be counterplay. tactical decisions. the jackson shouldnt be the answer to everything the enemy fields from kublewagen to jagdtiger. and the fact that it is is EXACLT why you will never see the 76mm, E8 or m10 in any sort of match ever.

whats more.... um... puma...su76..... m10..... light/ medium TDs.... and um... elefant...jagdtiger.... heavy TDs. the former lack the raw puch to upscale vs heavy armour and the latter are extremely cost inefficient fighting lighter vehicles. there should not be a one size fits all TD as it cuts they very important dynamic gameplay and leads to something silly like singlehandedly making 3 doctrines have 20% less ability slots.




E8 needs a role of its own, "no role at all" isnt a role. it will be competing for the most flexible and jackest of all trades tanks in the game- the m4 so unless you plan on buffing it back to where it was when it was op, jack of all trades is just as awkward as brawler. and equally un-needed while still not fixing the issue with the 76mm or the m10.

Except the 76mm is meta and op.

Except the 76mm is meta and op.

I'm curious, what aspect you consider op about it besides it's main characteristic and what changes you would do without gutting it.

I'm curious, what aspect you consider op about it besides it's main characteristic and what changes you would do without gutting it.

Mainly its doctrinal context. It's the perfect unit to continue the snowballing started by the jeep because it's easy to reach critical mass with it and it has insane RoF which makes it perfect for dives.

Wait. Are you serious?!? The tank destroyer.. It has more pen than the tank?

Actually its base penetration is lower than the Easy 8's. Only the HVAP rounds have more pen.
180/160/140 (250/225/200) vs 200/165/155

Mainly its doctrinal context. It's the perfect unit to continue the snowballing started by the jeep because it's easy to reach critical mass with it and it has insane RoF which makes it perfect for dives.

What you're describing is sealing the game before the oppoent can field appropriate counter, but it doesn't make the unit OP or such.

I think thedarkarmadillo nailed it about the Ez8, even if the unit is good stat wise, it brings nothing usefull to the faction. If we compare it to the T34-85, the later is actually very good vs infantry which is its primary function, to bleed your opponent and force him to build a panther.

What you're describing is sealing the game before the oppoent can field appropriate counter, but it doesn't make the unit OP or such.

I think thedarkarmadillo nailed it about the Ez8, even if the unit is good stat wise, it brings nothing usefull to the faction. If we compare it to the T34-85, the later is actually very good vs infantry which is its primary function, to bleed your opponent and force him to build a panther.

It's precisely what makes a unit OP. Comparing units without context is completely pointless.

It's precisely what makes a unit OP. Comparing units without context is completely pointless.

Would the 76mm be OP without the snowballing effect provided by the rest of the doctrine? As far as I experienced it the 76mm isn't even an I-win button vs the Pz4.

It's precisely what makes a unit OP. Comparing units without context is completely pointless.

The one ability combined arms makes the 76mm shoot incredibly fast (ap/hvap: 2-2.2/3.5 at vet 2). Speaking about out of context, the soviet Sherman is the same and absolutely should be included.

I just put the soviet variant into the table because it has a different name.

Edit: the only difference between the m4c and the 76mm is that the 76mm has a scatter offset of 0.3 compared to the m4cs 0.25, besides that they are the same.

Scatter offset now in the table for all vehicles.

I wouldn't say the M4(76) pintle is "FAR" superior to most, but it is definitely better than most.

Also this thing about the radio nets being different is news to me. Not saying I doubt you, but is there more specific information you can give about this?

I have not checked lately but radio net for most sherman work with most vehicles around it. So I sherman will get the bonus regardless of type of vehicle is around it.

On the other hand they Easy8 will get the bonus only if it near another easy8 or a couple of other vehicles.

I have not checked lately but radio net for most sherman work with most vehicles around it. So I sherman will get the bonus regardless of type of vehicle is around it.

On the other hand they Easy8 will get the bonus only if it near another easy8 or a couple of other vehicles.

No radio intercept works on the E8 when any heavy and medium vehicles are within 35m.

Whats really weird is that radio intercept works when around one light vehicle only, the t70. Literately states in the attribute editor to work only around the t70 (in terms of light vehicles).

No radio intercept works on the E8 when any heavy and medium vehicles are within 35m.

Whats really weird is that radio intercept works when around one light vehicle only, the t70. Literately states in the attribute editor to work only around the t70 (in terms of light vehicles).

Have you made in game tests?

Because at some point I am certain the Easy8 radio net was working differently.

As for radio net for shermans some other vehicles also provide the bonus like the ambulance if I remember correctly.

Have you made in game tests?

Because at some point I am certain the Easy8 radio net was working differently.

As for radio net for shermans some other vehicles also provide the bonus like the ambulance if I remember correctly.

Not a real guru of Ae but as far as im concerned, I cant see any differences.

And yes in game, the E8 works as all other shermans do and of course, around the t70 also.

The radio net does work when any allie medium or heavy is in the radios as it states to target heavy, medium and the t70 specifically.

No radio intercept works on the E8 when any heavy and medium vehicles are within 35m.

Whats really weird is that radio intercept works when around one light vehicle only, the t70. Literately states in the attribute editor to work only around the t70 (in terms of light vehicles).

Can confirm that it is correct and well known in higher 2on2 gameplay. Useless ability, as barely anyone goes for Shermans nowadays.

Not a real guru of Ae but as far as im concerned, I cant see any differences.

And yes in game, the E8 works as all other shermans do and of course, around the t70 also.

The radio net does work when any allie medium or heavy is in the radios as it states to target heavy, medium and the t70 specifically.

Unfortunately I can not test now.

There was a time the 2 radio nets where different, it was probably fixed at some point maybe when they fixed the stacking exploit.

Actually its base penetration is lower than the Easy 8's. Only the HVAP rounds have more pen.
180/160/140 (250/225/200) vs 200/165/155

I had thought that the E8 had better pen but don't have the m10 stats committed to memory. Thanks for clearing that up!

I had thought that the E8 had better pen but don't have the m10 stats committed to memory. Thanks for clearing that up!

There's no doubt that for cost, the E8 is an excellent counter to medium armor and pretty much any other faction would be happy to have it in their roster, but both it and the M10 suffer from the same issue.

The elite zooks for officers is an interesting idea to compensate for de-tuning the Jackson, but I'm not sure what would be a reasonable trade off.
Perhaps rate of fire? Rate of fire is a weakness for the firefly as it also has poor mobility and turret traverse but the jackson suffers neither of these. Maybe a 1-2 second longer reload?

Perhaps correspondingly the E8 could have a half a second faster reload.

There's no doubt that for cost, the E8 is an excellent counter to medium armor and pretty much any other faction would be happy to have it in their roster, but both it and the M10 suffer from the same issue.

The elite zooks for officers is an interesting idea to compensate for de-tuning the Jackson, but I'm not sure what would be a reasonable trade off.
Perhaps rate of fire? Rate of fire is a weakness for the firefly as it also has poor mobility and turret traverse but the jackson suffers neither of these. Maybe a 1-2 second longer reload?

Perhaps correspondingly the E8 could have a half a second faster reload.

I think the main issue is not the bazookas and the lack of availability for elite bazookas, but the ATG.

SOV and UKF have two high penetration units: Their ATG and the heavy TD. To counter mediums, these factions can rely on their ATGs which allows to make their heavy TDs more vulnerable in some regards (casemate, slow ROF and movement). Against Panthers and heavier units, both units work absolutely fine.
But USF does not have that. Additionally, the mediums of the Axis factions are quite different in armor. Bazookas and especially elite ones work okay against the OST P4, not so much though against OKW's P4. Similarly, they are unreliable against Panthers, a fact which is also true for their ATG. So in the end to reliably counter a Panther, USF relies on building a vehicle themselves, the Jackson. All other factions could get another PaK to defend against a Panther after loosing their heavy TD or simply already having invested into a Sherman. USF still can't, even if officers get elite bazookas. The combo of Cromwell/6-Pounder or T34/ZiS can work against Panthers and OKW P4, Sherman/57mm does not work that great.

And before anyone mentions it: Yes, you can dump munitions into your ATG to make it really good against heavies, but in the end this only get's you so far in a faction that lacks mines and can lose snares in the late game after infantry wipes.

Jackson is the only unit holding USF's late game together. Any serious nerf - as reasonable as it might be from a design point of view - would probably kill this faction.


So in conclusion:
Touching the Jackson is a difficult unit, because USF relies on it to shut down heavy tanks. The current performance level of USF's late game AT capabilities seems mostly fine in my eyes. But heavier nerfs to the Jackson (especially it's potential against heavy units) probably cannot be compensated by having a bit better bazookas that work semi-reliably against mediums on 1-2 squads, because these bazookas could not fill the gap in the anti-heavy department. I think USF's anti medium power could stem a nerfed Jackson, but the anti-heavy department could not.