snip
For once just read what the topic is actually about.
AEC and Bofors Tech.
21 Jul 2020, 09:33 AM
#41
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
For once just read what the topic is actually about.
21 Jul 2020, 09:45 AM
#42
Posts: 2243
For once just read what the topic is actually about.
"Now, let's talk about the Bofors... Pretty much everyone here can agree that Emplacements, by design, are outdated and are too easy of a target for artillery, and, in such modes as 3v3-4v4 only can be somewhat useful, but for a very small window, again, due to arty (again, I suppose and can be wrong, if I am-tell me). So I thought, what about to buff the Bofors a bit? Give it a cost decrease for the tech from 15Fuel to 10, with 15s decrease in the required time, while the Bofors itself has a Fuel cost increase (up to 40), and MP cost decrease (no idea how much MP it costs, I never use it). I also wanted to make the Bofors tech decrease the cost of the Mortar pit from 350MP to 320-300MP, but the increase in the cost of the tech itself up to 20Fuel +MP, to make it somewhat fair.
"
its pretty much a buff for emplacments...or what else?
21 Jul 2020, 09:53 AM
#43
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
... I don't know what would be the best course of action here since the UC has a narrow window and IS are difficult to touch.
This is a problem create by allowing increasing powerful unit available earlier. The window of opportunity for some of those units has become very small and thus their shock value has been increased too much to even be considered to be built. That can easily lead to snowball effects.
Imo the pace of the game should be slowed down allowing more time for each phase of the game and more more options should be available for to counter light vehicles.
For instance Ostheer could get the 221 in durable version with limited AI but good at fighting cars and snipers and then 222 could be be delay become more expensive and become more AT oriented.
Flame vehicles could have their DOT moved to an ability so that they remain effective but for a limited timed.
All that would reduce the need for early AEC or for an OP T-70.
21 Jul 2020, 10:19 AM
#44
Posts: 127
"Now, let's talk about the Bofors... Pretty much everyone here can agree that Emplacements, by design, are outdated and are too easy of a target for artillery, and, in such modes as 3v3-4v4 only can be somewhat useful, but for a very small window, again, due to arty (again, I suppose and can be wrong, if I am-tell me). So I thought, what about to buff the Bofors a bit? Give it a cost decrease for the tech from 15Fuel to 10, with 15s decrease in the required time, while the Bofors itself has a Fuel cost increase (up to 40), and MP cost decrease (no idea how much MP it costs, I never use it). I also wanted to make the Bofors tech decrease the cost of the Mortar pit from 350MP to 320-300MP, but the increase in the cost of the tech itself up to 20Fuel +MP, to make it somewhat fair.
"
its pretty much a buff for emplacments...or what else?
Read more carefully. That is because they're underused heavily and more often than not people say that they want them deleted from the game. I just see Emplacement as a British Su-76. And yes, a buff for Emplacements means a nerf for AEC, because I think it is simply too good, and because of that also overshadows the Emplacements.
I am "Racist".
21 Jul 2020, 10:26 AM
#45
Posts: 127
This is a problem create by allowing increasing powerful unit available earlier. The window of opportunity for some of those units has become very small and thus their shock value has been increased too much to even be considered to be built. That can easily lead to snowball effects.
Imo the pace of the game should be slowed down allowing more time for each phase of the game and more more options should be available for to counter light vehicles.
For instance Ostheer could get the 221 in durable version with limited AI but good at fighting cars and snipers and then 222 could be be delay become more expensive and become more AT oriented.
Flame vehicles could have their DOT moved to an ability so that they remain effective but for a limited timed.
All that would reduce the need for early AEC or for an OP T-70.
Too many changes too early and proposed at the same time. We have to make really small steps, considering balance changes, especially that late into the development of the game.
I am "Racist".
21 Jul 2020, 10:36 AM
#46
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
This is a problem create by allowing increasing powerful unit available earlier. The window of opportunity for some of those units has become very small and thus their shock value has been increased too much to even be considered to be built. That can easily lead to snowball effects.
Imo the pace of the game should be slowed down allowing more time for each phase of the game and more more options should be available for to counter light vehicles.
For instance Ostheer could get the 221 in durable version with limited AI but good at fighting cars and snipers and then 222 could be be delay become more expensive and become more AT oriented.
Flame vehicles could have their DOT moved to an ability so that they remain effective but for a limited timed.
All that would reduce the need for early AEC or for an OP T-70.
OKW puma arrives before T-70, reducing its window of opportunity to zero.
What's your suggestion to address that?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 Jul 2020, 11:00 AM
#47
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
This is a problem create by allowing increasing powerful unit available earlier. The window of opportunity for some of those units has become very small and thus their shock value has been increased too much to even be considered to be built. That can easily lead to snowball effects.
Imo the pace of the game should be slowed down allowing more time for each phase of the game and more more options should be available for to counter light vehicles.
For instance Ostheer could get the 221 in durable version with limited AI but good at fighting cars and snipers and then 222 could be be delay become more expensive and become more AT oriented.
Flame vehicles could have their DOT moved to an ability so that they remain effective but for a limited timed.
All that would reduce the need for early AEC or for an OP T-70.
While I generally agree, I think this is way out of scope for CoH2. It would mean reworking the whole pricing and balance for basically every unit and ability in the game.
Also it depends on what kind of game you want, because at the moment a normal game lasts between 20-50 minutes. Slowing everything down would mean that games would regularly reach the 1 hour mark and more and not everyone wants to play these type of games.
The need for an early AEC could have been fixed by a different design of the faction. It's a remnant of bad emplacement design while the game has been (at least now) balanced around vehicle play and received a very prominent LV phase. But Brits where not designed to have a LV, the AEC was supposed to be optional.
I agree with Sir Edgelord here, we have to make small steps and try to improve what we got, even if this means that some results will always be subpar.
21 Jul 2020, 11:22 AM
#48
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
While I generally agree, I think this is way out of scope for CoH2. It would mean reworking the whole pricing and balance for basically every unit and ability in the game.
Also it depends on what kind of game you want, because at the moment a normal game lasts between 20-50 minutes. Slowing everything down would mean that games would regularly reach the 1 hour mark and more and not everyone wants to play these type of games.
Making the game last longer and reducing the pace are not directly related. One would simply not see Panther/Comet/Churchill/Burmbar in every game.
The need for an early AEC could have been fixed by a different design of the faction. It's a remnant of bad emplacement design while the game has been (at least now) balanced around vehicle play and received a very prominent LV phase. But Brits where not designed to have a LV, the AEC was supposed to be optional.
I agree with Sir Edgelord here, we have to make small steps and try to improve what we got, even if this means that some results will always be subpar.
I have been advocating for small changes even when Relic was in charge:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52735/balance-mod-trying-to-kill-a-fly-with-sledgehammer
This is also part of the reason why I reluctant to post in thread. On the other hand emplacement need a redesign and light vehicle play should be looked. I am simply pointing at what is correct direction imo, the speed of these changes is another matter.
21 Jul 2020, 11:23 AM
#49
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
OKW puma arrives before T-70, reducing its window of opportunity to zero.
What's your suggestion to address that?
If your opponent build a Puma before you build a T-70 simply do not build it. Puma AI is not that great...
21 Jul 2020, 11:56 AM
#51
Posts: 1273
While I generally agree, I think this is way out of scope for CoH2. It would mean reworking the whole pricing and balance for basically every unit and ability in the game.
Also it depends on what kind of game you want, because at the moment a normal game lasts between 20-50 minutes. Slowing everything down would mean that games would regularly reach the 1 hour mark and more and not everyone wants to play these type of games.
I agree with you that changing the pace of the game would generally create endless other balance issues, including making the power spikes created by individual units and factions even more obvious and more difficult to counter/handle. Overall, this is an irresponsible balance suggestion.
Power spikes would be even more difficult to have appropriate timed solutions, and people would be locked to bases fairly quickly if they do a single mistake, as they have no resources left. It would be such a massive change that everything in the game would have to be re-evaluated and modified; and even if we assume this goes well, the game would be totally different after that and certainly not CoH2 anymore.
Also, the game works best when medium and heavy vehicles are buildable; delaying them would make the game more boring and very and highly predictable.
21 Jul 2020, 12:04 PM
#52
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Making the game last longer and reducing the pace are not directly related. One would simply not see Panther/Comet/Churchill/Burmbar in every game.
I have been advocating for small changes even when Relic was in charge:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52735/balance-mod-trying-to-kill-a-fly-with-sledgehammer
This is also part of the reason why I reluctant to post in thread. On the other hand emplacement need a redesign and light vehicle play should be looked. I am simply pointing at what is correct direction imo, the speed of these changes is another matter.
Well it depends. CoH2's core are tanks and playing with mediums is a big part of the game and fun. If you push them from ~15 min to ~25-30 min then they don't see much time anymore, especially not if you want two. And even if you get two of them out, at least the second one will barely make a difference anymore since the game can already be decided by the time it rolls out. Game length is mostly defined by the VP tick rate every 4 seconds and sets our standard games to 20-50 mins. And finally infantry play will become more important, which would likely cause a rework of MP economy since you cannot fill up free population with vehicles as quickly. This subject includes way more than just vehicle timings and should be discussed in a separate topic, so I'll leave it at that.
For the time being and to come back to topic I'll leave it at the suggestions that I made with the AEC. Not sure if UKF emplacements are fixable, but if they are it will need more than a few tweaks.
21 Jul 2020, 13:14 PM
#56
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
ffs.
If you want to slug it out with low effort trolling and bad insults, use PMs. No one keeps you from writing each other that way, but don't ruin one thread after the other.
If you want to slug it out with low effort trolling and bad insults, use PMs. No one keeps you from writing each other that way, but don't ruin one thread after the other.
21 Jul 2020, 13:56 PM
#57
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Well it depends. CoH2's core are tanks and playing with mediums is a big part of the game and fun. If you push them from ~15 min to ~25-30 min then they don't see much time anymore, especially not if you want two. And even if you get two of them out, at least the second one will barely make a difference anymore since the game can already be decided by the time it rolls out. Game length is mostly defined by the VP tick rate every 4 seconds and sets our standard games to 20-50 mins. And finally infantry play will become more important, which would likely cause a rework of MP economy since you cannot fill up free population with vehicles as quickly. This subject includes way more than just vehicle timings and should be discussed in a separate topic, so I'll leave it at that.
For the time being and to come back to topic I'll leave it at the suggestions that I made with the AEC. Not sure if UKF emplacements are fixable, but if they are it will need more than a few tweaks.
Offtopic. Copying from an older thread.
As far as AEC/Bofor goes:
If you want to nerf the AEC rush, simply increase the research time. The non rush timing would remain practically the same.
As far as Bofor goes, i'll start by making it not non exclusive with AEC tech.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
21 Jul 2020, 16:38 PM
#58
Posts: 479
I would say the biggest thing is to increase build time on AEC by about 15 seconds, increase the build time on the requisition for 15 seconds and tone down the Tread Shot ability plus also making it require Vet 1 like its supposed to. AEC cost wise is probably alright, maybe an extra 5 fuel cost for the unit just to delay it for a minute and 15 seconds or so. It's timing currently is about 7:30 with Bolster and 6:00 without Bolster meaning the 222 has pretty much no window (maybe 30 seconds at most) unless you skip Tier 1 by going Ostruppen or Ass Grens, or by going 2x Pio 2x MG-42. Worst case you have to give sections snares when you get Tier 2 to try and help against Ostheer lights coming out too fast.
22 Jul 2020, 01:32 AM
#59
Posts: 149
Make them unlock together with AEC with longer research time, reduce their build cost and HP, and remove their brace structure capability. Increase their suppression and reduce their damage somewhat.
Mortars keep their brace.
16 pounder needs its garrison bonus back.
Mortars keep their brace.
16 pounder needs its garrison bonus back.
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