5man grens OP?
11 Jun 2020, 21:28 PM
#101
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Stormtroopers aren't designed to have a standoff with tactical assault. They're designed to catch squads moving somewhere and ambush them with tac assault, taking minimal damage themselves while maximizing their own.
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11 Jun 2020, 22:38 PM
#102
Posts: 469
Once rocket artillery starts to roll out, 5 man grens the only viable ostheer infantry.
That´s it.
You need 5 man grens, simply so they don´t die in a rocket artillery barrage.
That´s it.
You need 5 man grens, simply so they don´t die in a rocket artillery barrage.
11 Jun 2020, 22:45 PM
#103
Posts: 2358
Once rocket artillery starts to roll out, 5 man grens the only viable ostheer infantry.
That´s it.
You need 5 man grens, simply so they don´t die in a rocket artillery barrage.
Or maybe its time to implement a "brace" skill for 4man grens ;p
Increasing AoE damage resistance at the expense of stayin put (negative RA)
11 Jun 2020, 22:53 PM
#104
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
This actually got me thinking, how much DPS is wasted on grens due to rec dmg instead of rec accuracy, leading to quite a few weapons, especially vetted+ability combinations going well over 100% accuracy against them.
Their rec dmg vet might be much more potent against certain small arms situations then regular rec acc as you clearly can't exactly hit more then 100% of shots.
Their rec dmg vet might be much more potent against certain small arms situations then regular rec acc as you clearly can't exactly hit more then 100% of shots.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Jun 2020, 23:38 PM
#105
Posts: 5279
I'd actually say that stormtroopers are well designed, it's other infiltration units that are less well designed. Infiltration units should be assault mainline replacements, they should be maximized by using them properly. It's one of the few mechanics that isn't just range ffs. Add more depth don't take more away.
#stalinwept
12 Jun 2020, 00:27 AM
#106
Posts: 783
Then ambush camouflage would do the same thing for pgrens, probably better with their better range.
As I said, Pioneers need a damage buff, thus lack of identity. Royal engineers have a better target size and have a non-doctrinal size increase.
Bundle grenades would, again Pgrens do the same job but better.
Ambush camo does NOT do the same thing for pgrens, because the camouflage characteristics are different.
If stormtroopers lack identity because of overlap pioneers, but pioneers lack identity because of lack of damage, then how can stormtroopers identity be taken by pioneers who have no identity due to lack of damage?
If your goal is displacement then they will have the same effectivity, except that bundled grenades do not deny buildings....
12 Jun 2020, 00:43 AM
#107
Posts: 5279
Do storm troopers have sprint? (it's been a while since I used that commander) If not could that be an avenue to look into?
#stalinwept
12 Jun 2020, 01:00 AM
#108
Posts: 766 | Subs: 2
Do storm troopers have sprint? (it's been a while since I used that commander) If not could that be an avenue to look into?
Only for Encirclement
12 Jun 2020, 01:06 AM
#109
Posts: 766 | Subs: 2
Ambush camo does NOT do the same thing for pgrens, because the camouflage characteristics are different.
If stormtroopers lack identity because of overlap pioneers, but pioneers lack identity because of lack of damage, then how can stormtroopers identity be taken by pioneers who have no identity due to lack of damage?
If your goal is displacement then they will have the same effectivity, except that bundled grenades do not deny buildings....
If reference when you said in wait in camouflage yes it is the same.
I said pioneers need a buff. This would cause overlap.
Bundle grenades are great against buildings, what are you talking about?
12 Jun 2020, 01:11 AM
#110
Posts: 2779
Once rocket artillery starts to roll out, 5 man grens the only viable ostheer infantry.
That´s it.
You need 5 man grens, simply so they don´t die in a rocket artillery barrage.
That's one of the most disgusting thing I don't like in COH2.
Back in vCOH Calliope isn't that common, nebels and walking stuka never being squad deleting machine. Only Brit 25 pounder creeping barrage being crazy OP. COH1 Wehrmarct having medic bunker zombie then losing vetted squad isn't that frustrating.
You played hard, micro hard, babysitting your troops and finally rewarded having them vet 3. Then got one click wiped by a goddamn rocket, literally disgusting. And rocket artillery happens in every single game, walking stuka, land mattress, katyusha, calliope, panzerwerfers. Bullshit.
12 Jun 2020, 03:36 AM
#111
Posts: 783
If reference when you said in wait in camouflage yes it is the same.
I said pioneers need a buff. This would cause overlap.
Bundle grenades are great against buildings, what are you talking about?
Actually an ambush is going to be stronger, the greater the dps you can level on the enemy before they retreat. For this reason, the stormtroopers are better at it, which isnt to say pgrens are bad at doing it but you want to front load your dps during an ambush, not trade fire at medium range.
So what you are saying is that currently since pios are underperforming for cost, there is no overlap but if pios were more powerful there would be?
I have already strongly advocated for pios to be cheaper, which would make the more cost efficient. This will also prevent your supposed overlap.
Grenades are meh against buildings because the unit inside can pop out and back in. This is a very basic micro trick. It does not work against incendiary grenades or molotov because they deal damage over time.
12 Jun 2020, 03:53 AM
#112
Posts: 600
only thing helping partisans now is removing them from the game and forget they ever existed
12 Jun 2020, 04:17 AM
#113
Posts: 1527
Permanently BannedI heard 5man grens receive an RA buff in addition to the extra man. I don't think they need a different RA. The 5man 60muni upgrade is already a mile and a half better than the normal 45muni G43 upgrade.
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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12 Jun 2020, 04:21 AM
#114
Posts: 184
Would be interested to know the exact stats of the upgrade. They are really strong at present.
12 Jun 2020, 05:06 AM
#115
Posts: 5279
Only for Encirclement
Thoughts on making it a native ability?
#stalinwept
12 Jun 2020, 07:45 AM
#116
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Thoughts on making it a native ability?
Ambush and sprint should not bundle in the first place.
And ST do not need sprint. With it they can even be used aggressively instead of stay in ambush sprinting to enemy and then turning on "tactical advance".
The whole ambush/sprint probably started from misconception. Relic probably experimented with knifes for commandos so they give them sprint so they can move at melee range. When it was abandoned the sprint stayed as a leftover and then someone decided instead of replacing with something else to make it "feature" and give them a speed bonus further reducing the reaction time of the opponent.
So no sprint and ambush should not even be combined in the first place.
12 Jun 2020, 13:01 PM
#117
Posts: 766 | Subs: 2
Would be interested to know the exact stats of the upgrade. They are really strong at present.
+1 Man
UI Icon
-10% received accuracy
Free med kits. (requires vet 1)
It offers more mobile dps compared to the LMG upgrade plus a large amount of durability, so moving to cover to cover is much more effective than just to A move everywhere. They do not gain as much as long range damage, but the Increase durability really pans out. They are still inferior to double bar riflemen in 1 on 1 though.
12 Jun 2020, 13:22 PM
#118
Posts: 766 | Subs: 2
Actually an ambush is going to be stronger, the greater the dps you can level on the enemy before they retreat. For this reason, the stormtroopers are better at it, which isnt to say pgrens are bad at doing it but you want to front load your dps during an ambush, not trade fire at medium range.
So what you are saying is that currently since pios are underperforming for cost, there is no overlap but if pios were more powerful there would be?
I have already strongly advocated for pios to be cheaper, which would make the more cost efficient. This will also prevent your supposed overlap.
Grenades are meh against buildings because the unit inside can pop out and back in. This is a very basic micro trick. It does not work against incendiary grenades or molotov because they deal damage over time.
Wiping a squad before they retreat is not a good thing. That is why many AoE systems are designed not kill everyone, just wound the rest. Bad positioning and clums usually cause the squad wipes.
Pioneers should not be unreasonably held back. This is just creating a problem to be "fixed" later. Pioneers need a damage buff as long as there is no T0 Grens.
Except incendiary grenades are building specific. One can hope out and hope back in and still avoid most-all damage because it still only effect models in its radius. Many two store building are tall enough where it second story units are not damage by the pool.
12 Jun 2020, 16:43 PM
#119
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
+1 Man
UI Icon
-10% received accuracy
Free med kits. (requires vet 1)
It offers more mobile dps compared to the LMG upgrade plus a large amount of durability, so moving to cover to cover is much more effective than just to A move everywhere. They do not gain as much as long range damage, but the Increase durability really pans out. They are still inferior to double bar riflemen in 1 on 1 though.
Correction:
- +1 Man
- +1 G43
- -10% received accuracy
- -15% cooldown
- Free med kits. (requires vet 1)
I think the bonusses are too strong for the time the upgrade is available, but once Allied mainlines are vetted and upgraded, 5 men Grenadiers aren't exceptionally strong anymore.
Many people think Grenadiers have difficulty competing without the 5 men upgrade, so I'd propose lowering the RA bonus of 5 men Grenadiers to -5% and adding -5% RA to vet 3 Grenadiers in general.
This results in the early impact of 5 men Grenadiers being slightly lowered, but them regaining their current performance at vet 3, while it would slightly buff LMG and G43 Grenadiers and make them a more attractive option.
To make my previous post a bit more clear.
13 Jun 2020, 03:36 AM
#120
Posts: 783
Wiping a squad before they retreat is not a good thing. That is why many AoE systems are designed not kill everyone, just wound the rest. Bad positioning and clums usually cause the squad wipes.
Pioneers should not be unreasonably held back. This is just creating a problem to be "fixed" later. Pioneers need a damage buff as long as there is no T0 Grens.
Except incendiary grenades are building specific. One can hope out and hope back in and still avoid most-all damage because it still only effect models in its radius. Many two store building are tall enough where it second story units are not damage by the pool.
There seems to be a disagreement with how players can, should and skillfully can use abilities tactics and units in the game. Suffice to say I believe you may be looking at what the "average" player can and will do with units and not what a skilled player can.
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