KT thread

Isn't a KT something like 26? A Churchill is 18 or 19. If the difference between those numbers is only 1-2 then LOL as much as you want.

As far as I'm aware after Churchill nerfs it's now 20pop a tank. Croc is 24 and KT is 26

Considering how hard the KT bitchslaps all other heavy tanks (church and now nerfed IS-2 included) I don't think any change is in order.

Current FF+croc combo is already identical to KT+JP in popcap (both are 40). Guess who wins that match up...

As far as I'm aware after Churchill nerfs it's now 20pop a tank. Croc is 24 and KT is 26

Considering how hard the KT bitchslaps all other heavy tanks (church and now nerfed IS-2 included) I don't think any change is in order.

Current FF+croc combo is already identical to KT+JP in popcap (both are 40). Guess who wins that match up...

I didn't know that jp4 could pen heavies as easily as FF or launch tulip rockets. Also croc is doctrinal and has triple de AI than KT. Lastly okw has a design far different than UKF, the closest match would be OST and Panthers are not as durable as a stock churchill so bad idea to compare factions to begin with

I didn't know that jp4 could pen heavies as easily as FF or launch tulip rockets. Also croc is doctrinal and has triple de AI than KT. Lastly okw has a design far different than UKF, the closest match would be OST and Panthers are not as durable as a stock churchill so bad idea to compare factions to begin with

Actually you're wrong, you need to look at stuff like DPS and TTK rather than just one factor like penetration on JP. In case of JP it has much faster RoF that boosts it's DPS that it outperforms core FF DPS in certain match ups.

JP kills Pershing faster than FF kills Tiger. So it performs fine vs heavies and also beats Jackson and FF in a duel. You can't even argue this point because It's proved by DPS and TTK stats.

Yes croc is doctrinal, but being doctrinal is not an advantage. you want to bring doctrines and tulips into this then JP and KT combo get HEAT and arty commander than wipe the floor with any other tank composition for the same popcap.

For these reasons KT is not getting a buff, face it. You want a uber buffed KT then elite armor already exists to fill your deepest and darkest wehraboo dreams. Go use it.

Actually you're wrong, you need to look at stuff like DPS and TTK rather than just one factor like penetration on JP. In case of JP it has much faster RoF that boosts it's DPS that it outperforms core FF DPS in certain match ups.

JP kills Pershing faster than FF kills Tiger. So it performs fine vs heavies and also beats Jackson and FF in a duel. You can't even argue this point because It's proved by DPS and TTK stats.

Coincidently you speak the importance of RoF when FF has the slowest and a vetted JP4 is one of the fastest.
Cherrypick?

Pen is RNG. All allied players had a valid point that a high armor KT was too RNG dependent, therefore the pen values of the TD went up and KT armor went down. Why is this argument only worth using for allied towards axis but not otherwise? I am noy saying axis is UP but if i claim that JP4 pen is bad, then lets answer the statement instead of playing stats deviation. Also KT has pretty low RoF but no, we focused of JP4.

Yes croc is doctrinal, but being doctrinal is not an advantage. you want to bring doctrines and tulips into this then JP and KT combo get HEAT and arty commander than wipe the floor with any other tank composition for the same popcap.

The fact that croc is docrinal says that its only a posibility from a variety of cases available.
The standard church is pretty durable, slow but sturdy AF, therefore KT would take AGES to bring down a churchill (even though we all know that churchill has no chance vs a KT).
And before you mention "But Elite armor HEAT rounds and..." that is another doctrinal (non meta) possibility, therefore balance should not weight it as much as it does to stock units/stats.

For these reasons KT is not getting a buff, face it. You want a uber buffed KT then elite armor already exists to fill your deepest and darkest wehraboo dreams. Go use it.

You can say that to yourself a thousand times if that makes you happy. Real facts differ a lot from that perspective. I am not being disrespectul to anyone by their thinking, my argument is strong enough and i have reality backing me up

Gunna suggest it again but TDs shouldn't be entirely rng nor should the completely invalidate armour. Reduce pen and add deflection damage. Then pen matters but volume of fire also matters. High armour works as does now against low tier units but effectively changes the damage negation of a bounce to a damage reduction against dedicated counters. This ensures both high armour units and TDs remain both viable and able to do their job instead of the current case of one being useless due to the other doing its job.

I didn't know that jp4 could pen heavies as easily as FF or launch tulip rockets.

It's okay, he doesn't know either

I think it's fine as is. If anything, it's more of a "last resort" type unit where if you lose your buildings, and don't want to spend fuel to rebuild, you just get the Tiger out instead as a last ditch effort to regain your ground. For that purpose it works just fine.

Gunna suggest it again but TDs shouldn't be entirely rng nor should the completely invalidate armour. Reduce pen and add deflection damage. Then pen matters but volume of fire also matters. High armour works as does now against low tier units but effectively changes the damage negation of a bounce to a damage reduction against dedicated counters. This ensures both high armour units and TDs remain both viable and able to do their job instead of the current case of one being useless due to the other doing its job.

Exactly this, i agree with this too.

Recently i learned that KT had a hull welding issues, so after a couple of bounces frontal hull welds would break under pressure. Deflection damage could be really useful to balance lategame TDs vs a high armor heavy.

Now i need to ask. wich is the golden number for a deflection damage to be consistent, yet useful to allied TDs. For simplicity if a KT goes down with 10 pen shots, now with deflection damage, it should be something like 5 pen/10 deflect? or 5 pen/7 deflect (one is 50% dmg the other is 70%)

Also, do deflection damage cause critical failures? Like main gun damage or anything similar

Exactly this, i agree with this too.

Recently i learned that KT had a hull welding issues, so after a couple of bounces frontal hull welds would break under pressure. Deflection damage could be really useful to balance lategame TDs vs a high armor heavy.

Now i need to ask. wich is the golden number for a deflection damage to be consistent, yet useful to allied TDs. For simplicity if a KT goes down with 10 pen shots, now with deflection damage, it should be something like 5 pen/10 deflect? or 5 pen/7 deflect (one is 50% dmg the other is 70%)

Also, do deflection damage cause critical failures? Like main gun damage or anything similar

I'd start with 50% and tweak from there. As I said the idea is that both armour and TDs do their jobs without nullifying the other.
Not sure about crits, perhaps someone better than I could enlighten us.

The main issue with the KT is the nerfed armour. With the placement of Allied TDs as they are, any KT that gets build will be auto-hit and penned most of the time by TDs and usually spends most of the time behind the frontlines being repaired, coincentally by the most expensive repair squads that are out there. And it has to retreat because its also one of the slowest and most expensive units in the game, meaning its a magnet and any semi decent team will converge on it.

For this single reason building the KT and repairing it constantly by Sturmpios means that basically about 40% of your pop cap simply spends the time doing nothing useful, which is why nobody builds them these days.

The armour needs to be buffed so it may deflect more incoming damage and stay in the frontline and survice better.

And if you invest in tank destroyers, you are losing a lot of AI power. It goes both ways. Jackson, SU and Firefly are only good vs tanks. Besides, it's not 100% penetration at long ranges, it's 60% which is definetely not "Auto-git and penned most of the time". It's more like half of the time which gives the KT enough time to push with a supporting army. If you push with KT and your teammate pushes with Panthers, there is no line of tank destroyers that can withstand the armour of that magnitude.

The issue with KT in teamgames is that the battlefield is saturated with 60 range TDs that bully KT into useless submission when KT enters the field. Kt becomes useless and has 0 interaction as the opposition is the one that has all the iniative and edge. Why would anyone also go for KT when they can go for a more nimble tiger that has some maneuverability. In order to fix this worlds most expensive TD training dummy we need to figure out:

-How to give KT a RELEVANT strenght over regular tiger?
-How to have an interactive relation on the battlefield with 60 range TDs
-How to offset new strength with a relevant weakness ?

I would give KT a vet 1 hulldown ability. This ability would differ from the normal hull down abilities in such way, that it would have a 5 second setup time leaving the KT vulnerable to aggressive pushes and call ins. The hull down would increase the range to 60 so KT could be able to trade blows with enemy TD. In this way we could add the tactical flexibility and useful role needed to the KT without making it OP.

The last thing this game needs is a 60 range KT.

The main issue with the KT is the nerfed armour. ...

It is not the armor the high penetration chance of allied TDs.

It it their penetration especially when vetted that needs to go down not the KT's armor that need to go up.

so all allies fans voted no and all axis fans yes making it a 50:50 vote? xD

I think all the KT would need to bring up the lethality is ungating the KT + Command Panther combo. The fuel requirements for both and the needed time to vet up both units to take full advantage of the buffs... it would be only OP at 1+ hr games and at that point if you let a panther get 10k+ xp its really on you.

So the solution is: Give Axis a game winning combination. If the Allies have bad luck to get a game to such a lengthty time, it's on them... my God. Just close this thread, the solutions from both sides of the party are getting ridiculous.

I think all the KT would need to bring up the lethality is ungating the KT + Command Panther combo. The fuel requirements for both and the needed time to vet up both units to take full advantage of the buffs... it would be only OP at 1+ hr games and at that point if you let a panther get 10k+ xp its really on you.

The viability of the KT shouldn't hinge on being available with a single very expensive unit in a single commander. KT should be viable in its own right and worth the decision of the units it is exclusive with.

The issue with KT in teamgames is that the battlefield is saturated with 60 range TDs that bully KT into useless submission when KT enters the field. Kt becomes useless and has 0 interaction as the opposition is the one that has all the iniative and edge. Why would anyone also go for KT when they can go for a more nimble tiger that has some maneuverability. In order to fix this worlds most expensive TD training dummy we need to figure out:

-How to give KT a RELEVANT strenght over regular tiger?
-How to have an interactive relation on the battlefield with 60 range TDs
-How to offset new strength with a relevant weakness ?

I would give KT a vet 1 hulldown ability. This ability would differ from the normal hull down abilities in such way, that it would have a 5 second setup time leaving the KT vulnerable to aggressive pushes and call ins. The hull down would increase the range to 60 so KT could be able to trade blows with enemy TD. In this way we could add the tactical flexibility and useful role needed to the KT without making it OP.

Agree with all the above. The hull down idea is also decent.

I would suggest a different approach, or actually two.

1. Repairs - okw has a real problem here, especially on large maps. KT spends too much time in repairs. Also it requires 300mp unit to repair it (together with KT it is over 1000mp doing nothing). Bleed can be huge as very often repairing sappers will lose models due to katy, for example. They are very expensive to reinforce compared to other engineers. When they lose models they also lose repair speed. They must come back to base, reinforce and come back to the tiger. So repairing takes even more time. Additional problem is that often they will have to repair their trucks. Basically the manpower required to service it is too big for what it does. My idea is to make sure that repairs require less manpower. Because that is actually where okw starts losing the game. Because of the tiger they lose too much manpower not fighting but just repairing. All this manpower stops dealing damage for too long periods basically.

The solution would be to give tiger self-repairs so that it can back off and just pay munitions to speed up the repairs (if sturmpio is there) or just repair without the need to use sturmpios. It would give it more battlefield presence and freed up sturmpios to do sth different. Imo it would be enough for a start. Alternative approach would be repair bunkers or repair halftracks for okw. Another alternative would be to give KT a crew.

Option 2 - concentrate only on speed buffs. The turret rotation speed and the speed of the KT. I like the first option better, though.

I'm probably gonna be mega-dogpiled for this one, but... what if you just lowered the KT's 240 damage gun to 160, and buffed something else like armor/reduced damage (ala KV-1) or giving it stronger veterancy (perhaps a better reload speed than even the Tiger I) to make up for it? Seems to me that keeping it balanced as a high damage/high health/armor sponge is why it's always been so tricky to tweak, preventing squad wipes and all that. With all the work that's gone into tuning heavies that just do 160 damage, why not let the KT benefit from that knowledge?

Just a lurker's two cents on this one.