Pioneers after early game

true - but it changes nothing. One will prefer universal hidden mines and demo charges. Somebody else will love to use visible minefields and hidden tellers. It does not mean that pios are better because of those mines. The are just different. No price difference is justified because of that.

Well, it is the preference of a player but I like universal mines more. And signs are really helpful in making such minefields a munition sink, contrary to tripwire or regular mines. The sign posts mean that any careful player will simply avoid them. You have to be a few times better than your opponent to make them work well or simply be lucky and count on your opponent's not paying attention. You can place a few regular mines next to each other and have similar results as Soviets. Similarly, 50 muni for a teller may be easily lost because of the sweeper. If a teller is spotted you lose more muni than when a regular mine is spotted. Tellers usually give a player more time to spot them as infantry don't trigger them. Also tellers cripple mediums and other heavier vehicles just like regular mines (just more hp damage). The crippled engine is just the same. And it is the crippled engine that will cost you the vehicle most often and regular mines do that just fine. I'm not saying that tellers are worse. They are just different and do not justify the claim that pios are better at mining. I prefer Soviet universal mines and demos simply more than minefields and tellers. Definitely no price difference is justified between the engineers here.

The powers lies in the fact that is can be spammed and placed in many different places, which will stop any advance inflicting losses much more efficiently than 50muni teller or minefields that can be avoided more easily. Once again you should understand that it is really easy to accompany your t70 with a 170mp engineer and sweep. Your opponent will lose 50 munitions easily this way. Soviet universal mines will cripple the engine and you will finish such vehicles easily. There is usually only one t70 on the field so keeping a sweeper close is not a problem. You don't need another sweeper as a)minefields are visible b)tellers won't kill your infantry. When you confront Soviet universal mines you are at risk on any part of the map because mines will kill anything that walks over them and they are not visible. And usually this one pio (200 manpower) with sweeper can't be everywhere, so either you advance only on one side of the map or you risk loses. Soviets don't need to risk that much and can sidecap more easily.

Just place them using rotate camera function behind a building or other sight blocker and watch the fireworks. It is easier to spot ost minefiled than a well placed demo. You are sort of contradicting youself here - a minefiled with signs is good and signs make it not abusive while a small, less visible demo is bad? Minefield is easier to spot than the a demo! U also have much more time to react when you walk into a minefiled. Also the minefield is more expensive and thus more likely to become a muni sink. Demos are cheaper than minefields and can wipe the whole squad, even inside the building. If people can make minefields wipe squads a demo can be used even more easily.

But the sight radius is not that great on its own and shouldn't justify the 30mp price difference. It is not worth 30 extra manpower. It was also introduced only to make mg42 work as its setup and tear down times are very slow and it was vulnerable to flanks too much. UKF mgs just spot for themselves and they don't need pios next to them, for example, which is a bigger advantage. So basically pios have another function - to babysit mgs. IMO it is a disadvantage as they should lose extra sight and this extra sight should probably be given to mg42 arc after setup in a way similar to SU85 focus sight - less side sight and more forward sight. It is again a story similar to sandbags. Instead of givig them to grens (supposedly OP) they were given to pios. Yet, sections and conscripts have them. It is just incredible how someone can make access to sandbags more limited by not giving them to infantry. They give them to engineers instead, and then people say that pios are better. No they are not. It is better to build sandbags with cons while CEs can wire them. A much better combo. Again sandbags don't make pios worth 30mp more. If you feel pios should be more expensive because of sandbags you should advocate making conscripts more expensive than grens.

Only marginally better presence. When you drop a model you have to retreat anyway. The problem is that merge makes you not waste manpower. Healing costs munitions and you already paid munitions at the base to build a healing structure. So again you sink munitions using it. To make healing work again you need to be a better player and possibly combine it with a halftrack. Merge is simple and much more effective. Flares are basically better than healig, especially vs 4 men squads. Losing 30 manpower (gren model) or more (pzrgren) to 10 muni investment basically means an immediate retreat or taking high risk fighting with 3 men squad. Merge gives you more field presence and it is free and, most importantly, can be used in combat. With healing you have to pay munitions and still possibly retreat, which again makes it a munition sink.

It is not mental gymnastics. It is just trying to make you aware that Soviets at the moment have quite a few cheaper units that actually don't perform worse than more expensive counterparts on the other side. 180 mp pios and 170 manpower engineers would be just better for balance imo (especially if mg42 was made 10mp more expensive at the same time). Alternatively, they could be made cheaper to 170manpower after the last battlephase building is set up to make sure they can be replaced as effectively as soviet engies when wiped.

If pio,s only had one of these points over ce's you would be right that a single thing does not warrent 30mp price difference.

But the fact is pio,s have a lot more they give to or do for the faction then ce,s justifying 30 mp difference. You just dont want to see it.

Merge does not make you waste mp? So are you saying merging is free and without risk or drawback?
Healing in the field is less risky, merge is a tranfer of models to keep stuff on the field at the cost of another squads field presence.

Soviet spamming mines just delays the enemy. It does not wipe anything reliably. It also costs a conciderable higher amout of muni wich soviets dont have lying armore like in the old days. Placing 2 mines closely and having it wipe 4 models requires a really big amount of luck. Its not reliable to get that to work. You will almost always waste the second mine.

Conscripts have sandbags because they lack nades long range dps and ai upgrades that other main lines have. They also require the most expensive side tech. They are the only main line that should have them next to sections if they are supposed to hug cover every game all game.

If you care to share with me those units you think are on par but are cheaper. I cant think of one tbh.

This thread is unnecessary, all Pioneers need is a slight vet requirement reduction cause without flamer they can't engage in combat past early game. If you can get to the vet 2 repair reward easier, you free up allot of time for them to place mines.

This thread is unnecessary, all Pioneers need is a slight vet requirement reduction cause without flamer they can't engage in combat past early game. If you can get to the vet 2 repair reward easier, you free up allot of time for them to place mines.

That goes for all engies, you aren't going to see vet3 CEs with a sweeper.

That goes for all engies, you aren't going to see vet3 CEs with a sweeper.

No it doesn't, Spios can get vet 5 easily by putting away sweeper, Rear Echelons can equip either a BAR or zooks with the sweeper and get to 5men at vet 3 easily and Royal Engineer Sappers can equip 2 PIATs or 2 Brens on top of their sweeper and vet up easily. It's only EFA engineers that have to struggle to vet up.

That goes for all engies, you aren't going to see vet3 CEs with a sweeper.

No you will! Because they are cheap and they have con rifles!

No you will! Because they are cheap and they have con rifles!

I'm genuinely confused if you're serious or parodying certain user.

I'm genuinely confused if you're serious or parodying certain user.

Ouch

That goes for all engies, you aren't going to see vet3 CEs with a sweeper.

I mean no sweeper and no flamer. CE's can get there just fine if they stay at range.

Vet 3 isn't that important, just have to get vet 2.

If pio,s only had one of these points over ce's you would be right that a single thing does not warrent 30mp price difference.

Nor the things you mention.

But the fact is pio,s have a lot more they give to or do for the faction then ce,s justifying 30 mp difference. You just dont want to see it.

It is you who don't see how powerful tools exist in CEs rooster and exaggerate the power of tellers and minefiels, bunkers, etc.

Merge does not make you waste mp? So are you saying merging is free and without risk or drawback?
Healing in the field is less risky, merge is a tranfer of models to keep stuff on the field at the cost of another squads field presence.

Heal wastes munitions just like tellers and minefields can once they are detected. Heal can only work when no models were lost and still becomes a muni sink. Manpower in merge would be spent the same way whether it is through merge or base reinforcing. You can even replace an engineer model for only 18 manpower instead 21 at the base. You don't seem to see it. It will never be a waste, always advantage because done on the field and in combat and without the need to retreat a flame unit. Often it will save otherwise overextended unit. Instead of being wiped in combat the unit will continue the push. You are underestimating this ability greatly and overestimating ostheer's muni paid abilities. Mines and minefields especially, are very likely to be detected and make ost player waste munitions.

Soviet spamming mines just delays the enemy.

Yes. And also inflicts a lot of manpower bleed, which is even more important. Two gren models transfers to 60 manpower in case of grens. Even more in case of panzergrens. That is a lot.

It does not wipe anything reliably.

It cripples the engines. That is enough on vehicles for 30 munitions. When it comes to infantry, demos can reliably kill an elite infantry squad. Mines usually kill two models, which transfers to sometimes even 80 manpower. There are no mines like that on ostheer engineers.

It also costs a conciderable higher amout of muni wich soviets dont have lying armore like in the old days. Placing 2 mines closely and having it wipe 4 models requires a really big amount of luck. Its not reliable to get that to work. You will almost always waste the second mine.

I don't really know how to respond to this. Soviet mines and tripflares are very cheap - 30 munitions and 10 munitions respectively. Demo is cheaper than a minefield. Do you really think that a visible minefiled with special signs on the edges kills infantry more reliably?

Conscripts have sandbags because they lack nades long range dps and ai upgrades that other main lines have. They also require the most expensive side tech. They are the only main line that should have them next to sections if they are supposed to hug cover every game all game.

But they can become 7 men, have molotovs, hoorah, at nade and many other commander abilities. Their sandbags are free and can be combined with CEs barbed wire. You really underestimate cons.

If you care to share with me those units you think are on par but are cheaper. I cant think of one tbh.

It is a thread about pios after early game. Lategame pios are unnecessarily more expensive. In a tight match the possibility to quickly (more cheaply) replace engineers and merge into them while they are repairing help with saving damaged tanks significantly. It creates imbalance. That is why I believe a good solution might be lowering the pios price after the last battlephase to the level similar to CEs (or as somebody suggested to make them a bit cheaper after every battlephase). Alternatively, they could be cheaper from the start with a price increase on an mg42 not to damage the early game manpower economy that is quite well balanced.

Nor the things you mention.

It is you who don't see how powerful tools exist in CEs rooster and exaggerate the power of tellers and minefiels, bunkers, etc.

Heal wastes munitions just like tellers and minefields can once they are detected. Heal can only work when no models were lost and still becomes a muni sink. Manpower in merge would be spent the same way whether it is through merge or base reinforcing. You can even replace an engineer model for only 18 manpower instead 21 at the base. You don't seem to see it. It will never be a waste, always advantage because done on the field and in combat and without the need to retreat a flame unit. Often it will save otherwise overextended unit. Instead of being wiped in combat the unit will continue the push. You are underestimating this ability greatly and overestimating ostheer's muni paid abilities. Mines and minefields especially, are very likely to be detected and make ost player waste munitions.

Yes. And also inflicts a lot of manpower bleed, which is even more important. Two gren models transfers to 60 manpower in case of grens. Even more in case of panzergrens. That is a lot.

It cripples the engines. That is enough on vehicles for 30 munitions. When it comes to infantry, demos can reliably kill an elite infantry squad. Mines usually kill two models, which transfers to sometimes even 80 manpower. There are no mines like that on ostheer engineers.

I don't really know how to respond to this. Soviet mines and tripflares are very cheap - 30 munitions and 10 munitions respectively. Demo is cheaper than a minefield. Do you really think that a visible minefiled with special signs on the edges kills infantry more reliably?

But they can become 7 men, have molotovs, hoorah, at nade and many other commander abilities. Their sandbags are free and can be combined with CEs barbed wire. You really underestimate cons.

It is a thread about pios after early game. Lategame pios are unnecessarily more expensive. In a tight match the possibility to quickly (more cheaply) replace engineers and merge into them while they are repairing help with saving damaged tanks significantly. It creates imbalance. That is why I believe a good solution might be lowering the pios price after the last battlephase to the level similar to CEs (or as somebody suggested to make them a bit cheaper after every battlephase). Alternatively, they could be cheaper from the start with a price increase on an mg42 not to damage the early game manpower economy that is quite well balanced.

so you dont want to or cant mention any more cheaper units that are on par with axis counterparts.

i'll just end it here. you downplay all that pio,s do. ignore that they have more to offer then ce's ever will during the entire game. you seem to live in the past with demo,s being viable squad wipers.
You fail to see or dont want to see that soviets suffer more wipes and model losses and destroyed vehicles then most factions in an average game as a faction design. Thus dont have so much mp to spare in the late game a lot of the time.

The perception you have that 170mp replacment engies for soviets is an unfair advantidge is just a false one.

My argument was ignored in order to cherry pick details. Sob.

Ok i need a TL,DR verion of this two pages of walltext. I simply dont understand why so much noise for the weakest (after ostruppen, krappa) unit of OST. I mean it has utility and T0 stock damage i guess?

The lategame stage for pios is repairing tanks. They got a buff recently with the sweeper. IMO if durability is the issue give them the same Dmg resistance as grens when T4 is built. Or some sort of straight problem -> solution path

Ok i need a TL,DR verion of this two pages of walltext. I simply dont understand why so much noise for the weakest (after ostruppen, krappa) unit of OST. I mean it has utility and T0 stock damage i guess?

The lategame stage for pios is repairing tanks. They got a buff recently with the sweeper. IMO if durability is the issue give them the same Dmg resistance as grens when T4 is built. Or some sort of straight problem -> solution path

90% of the last two pages is achpawel arguing tirelessly and tediously for a 10% discount on pioneer squads.

Ok i need a TL,DR verion of this two pages of walltext. I simply dont understand why so much noise for the weakest (after ostruppen, krappa) unit of OST. I mean it has utility and T0 stock damage i guess?

The lategame stage for pios is repairing tanks. They got a buff recently with the sweeper. IMO if durability is the issue give them the same Dmg resistance as grens when T4 is built. Or some sort of straight problem -> solution path

Thread in summary is literally "Why can't my utility unit fight in mid-late game like all the other utility units that are chock-full of upgrades and vet"

That goes for all engies, you aren't going to see vet3 CEs with a sweeper.

but CE have lower vet req already kat , did u not see the chart ?
and they have cons rifles so getting vet it's not hard

pio have higher vet req (same a rolyal) but are stuck with water guns that needs to be at point blank to deal some damage instead, again they have same vet req as royal eng , the same unit that can go 5 men, upgrade weapons, and start with good RA

that should tell u already what's the problem

i would add they could get a 0.93 RA similar green from the start or at vet 1 after their vet req is fixed to standard lvl

90% of the last two pages is achpawel arguing tirelessly and tediously for a 10% discount on pioneer squads.

Exactly! Especially after last tier is researched to make pios more easily replaceable.
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pio have higher vet req (same a rolyal) but are stuck with water guns that needs to be at point blank to deal some damage instead, again they have same vet req as royal eng , the same unit that can go 5 men, upgrade weapons, and start with good RA

Yeah this seems totally valid. I don't think pios need much help with combat, but i don't see why their vet requirements should match REs

Where did you get Royal engy vet requirements from though? I didn't see those in the chart i could only see them for the first 4 factions, something might be getting cut off on mobile though

I think both Eastern engineers should get some RA bonus at vet 2

You are underestimating the value of crews.
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You overestimate the value of crews.

Every faction starts with an engineering unit except UKF so you start with one to repair. Unless it dies, you are not paying for a support unit.

Nobody captures with crew because that's a good way to lose your tank. Especially with how buggy crew interactions are with damaged tanks and recrewing. Someone please tell me a way to recrew my damaged tank immediately without switching to repair mode first.

The crew is vulnerable while repairing so many players will likely retreat further back than if engineers were out. In addition, USF is locked out of true heavy vehicles because of their un-crewing perk. They at most will have one crew repairing the tank which takes longer than normal unless you uncrew two vehicles together and micro them to repair together. With engineers, you can have 2 engineers repairing one tank.

Sherman is only 10MP and 10F cheaper than Panzer 4. Panzer 4 has better armour and all purpose ammunition that works well on both tanks and infantry for only 10MP, 10F more, the increased cost is represented in the stats. Different supporting armies behind the tank too. The Sherman radio net works well with other Shermans while Panzer 4 synergizes with Panzer grens. Very hard to compare the two.

You need to stop cherry picking facts. Stein Grenadier made an excellent argument on why Pios do not need a buff. A minor vet decrease perhaps but the same should be made for Royal Engineers as they are both close range support units.

Where did you get Royal engy vet requirements from though? I didn't see those in the chart i could only see them for the first 4 factions, something might be getting cut off on mobile though.

Royal Engineers are on the right side of the chart.

Royal Engineers are on the right side of the chart.

Yeah I think that's getting cut-off on my phone. Thanks though