Changes i feel grens need

Of course grens struggle vs 280mp+bar tech+grenade tech+120muni. That's why you got pgrens and a sniper to supplement. USF don't, they just have rifles and some officers for utility.

you can't be serious......

I'll just make the correction at this point:
Axis do not get stuff "for free". It is usually included in their tech cost, they just unlock it at different timings. There are some differences between factions though regarding tech costs in general. But this is not specific to Allies or Axis

If you look at the tech of Soviets vs Ost. Ost most certainly gets stuff for free.

Ostheer gets access to grenades, LMGs, fausts, panzergrenadiers, an amazing machine gun, sniper, mortar all for the amazing price of 130MP (thanks you bonus 50MP starting resources for OST!). Meanwhile as Soviets you spend 160MP (no bonus for soviet scrubs) and get access to... No grenades, no weapon upgrades, no AT nades, a shit machine gun that is somehow 260MP, mortar, AT gun. Or they get penals/scoutcar/sniper.

If that doesn't qualify as 'getting stuff for free' then nothing can ever qualify as getting stuff for free.

If you look at the tech of Soviets vs Ost. Ost most certainly gets stuff for free.

Ostheer gets access to grenades, LMGs, fausts, panzergrenadiers, an amazing machine gun, sniper, mortar all for the amazing price of 130MP (thanks you bonus 50MP starting resources for OST!). Meanwhile as Soviets you spend 160MP (no bonus for soviet scrubs) and get access to... No grenades, no weapon upgrades, no AT nades, a shit machine gun that is somehow 260MP, mortar, AT gun. Or they get penals/scoutcar/sniper.

If that doesn't qualify as 'getting stuff for free' then nothing can ever qualify as getting stuff for free.

I don't have my own sheet at hand at the moment, so I'll just quote StuG's post instead.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/96750/redirect-thread-faction-teching-and-timing/post/770422

Haven't rechecked his maths but I think it is correct since I did not compain back then.

It's slightly outdated since the discussion is from August last year, so especially OST T4 got a bit of a rework. But in general it still holds true:
For tech to mediums, healing (or OKW T2 engineers), grenades and weapon upgrades all factions pay approximately the same in fuel. MP is a bit different but MP economy is also way more complex.

I'm not going into this cherrypicking "OST gets the building for X MP" etc as this is forced by faction and game design (btw unless they changed it or StuG is wrong, the MP starting difference between OST and SOV seems to be 30, not 50; also you neglected the 40 FU pricetag on BP1 so that PGrens don't come right out of the gate).
Instead we should have a look at which times and for how much investment a faction can reach certain milestones like "4 mainlines and a support weapon on the field", "viable unlock of weapon upgrades" etc. This would give a better impression of when a faction has an advantage. OKW for example pays quite a bit for their full tech. The main difference though is that they have to make their MP investment comes comparatively late, which allows their early game pressure.

If you want to compare faction costs, do it reasonably and don't retell actual faction differences by design.

Nice to see the myth axis "free" stuff finally put to rest. R.I.P

By your logic I guess british Assault officer is underpowered too? He was not built once despite tommies seemingly to struggle vs those Ostheer upgrades or callin inf. (win rates support that with brit win/loss vs ost).

Countary to that we actually did see grens (yes upgraded as you said), and Ostheer won a lot of games. I'm not seeing where the issue is here in balance.

Well grens is a core mainline infrantry which was in the game since.... the first stage, while the Assault officer is a UNIQUE ELITE INFANTRY which has been added last patch, 3 days before the tournament. So players weren't able to put it in their build orders, and they don't even know if it was a good unit. Whereas grens is old enough, so if the "pro" player base decided they are not worth (not 1 or 2 people). And a mainline infantry being not worth is quite an issue.

funny when it comes to allies tech is mention but when it comes to grenadiers, snipers and PGs tech suddenly disappear.

Grenadier and sniper require a building and that has a tech cost
Lmg and Pg need BP 1 and that is another tech cost

That tech is 80mp and 10fuel. A molotov unlock costs more.

Instead we should have a look at which times and for how much investment a faction can reach certain milestones like "4 mainlines and a support weapon on the field", "viable unlock of weapon upgrades" etc.

I'm pretty sure Ostheer is dominant in the majority of those milestones.

4x mainline + 1 HMGs, they're first. (how couln't they be)
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite: first
4x mainline + 1 support + at snare + ai grenade: probably second behind OKW
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade: first again
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade + light vehicle (222): first again
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade + light vehicle + medic: probably 2nd depending on how you count OKW healing crate.

In fact, maybe except Brit, if you top all upgrades for USF and Soviet before teching medium tanks, Pz4 is cheaper to reach than Sherman and probably equal to T34. BUT we all know Soviet need badly the T70 to stay on the game, so if we count a T70 before going T34, the Pz4 is hitting the field before even if the Ostheer player went 251 AND 222.

That tech is 80mp and 10fuel. A molotov unlock costs more.

You math is wrong BP 1 also has a cost.

In addition that tech you mention is require to even get grenadiers when IS/riflemen/conscripts/VG are available at no tech cost. If you want to add all the tech when comparing with allied infatry you simply have to add the axis tech cost also.

lol @ the people saying that grens should struggle because units cost more, its like ya'll forget that you don't *need* upgrades to beat them at most stages of the game, you only really start losing once they start upgrading, but at that point you'll be paying either same-ish to get an upperhand or get some other major advantage on them (5men for example=

Not like you field more than 3 grens normally anyway, so mp cost is completely worthless, you're gonna field 4-5 sections vs 3-4 grens, 3 rifles/2rifl1path/2rif/1assengie+ officers, and they bleed less and win more.

Thats not factoring penals which are actually worse yet cost on part wíth an elite unit with almost no benefits lmfao.

I'm pretty sure Ostheer is dominant in the majority of those milestones.

4x mainline + 1 HMGs, they're first. (how couln't they be)
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite: first
4x mainline + 1 support + at snare + ai grenade: probably second behind OKW
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade: first again
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade + light vehicle (222): first again
4x mainline + 1 support + 1 elite + at snare + ai grenade + light vehicle + medic: probably 2nd depending on how you count OKW healing crate.

In fact, maybe except Brit, if you top all upgrades for USF and Soviet before teching medium tanks, Pz4 is cheaper to reach than Sherman and probably equal to T34. BUT we all know Soviet need badly the T70 to stay on the game, so if we count a T70 before going T34, the Pz4 is hitting the field before even if the Ostheer player went 251 AND 222.

Well it really depends what and against whom you are comparing and how much this makes sense. 4 mainlines or similars make sense on all factions since this is a viable build. Additional AT gun also makes sense for basically all factions, additional MG not so much since OKW and USF were not designed to use MGs as an integral part and UKF and SOV don't necessarily need one either, especially not in the early game and even more especially not in the early game against Ostheer.
Also we may should not forget to compare the strengths of the composition afterwards (and the amount of unit options each faction gets). This is obviously quite tricky and situation dependent, but at least some points can be considered. E.g. Riflemen cost more than Grenadiere. Does USF therefor draw the short end of the stick? Nope, because Riflemen are very good infantry that usually beat Grenadiere unless you go for a long range shoot out. Similarly you can argue that OST get's it's 251 or 222 faster than SOV get their T70, but that's scewed as well. Now obviously there are more factors to that like for example OST's faction design in the early game revolving around using the MG42 and Grenadiere in conjunction, but we should not leave the power level out of sight.

Also OST's tech is quite "in between" other factions, but you know this already.

Now a bit more numbers to the point with SOV T2 build, correct me if I am wrong (MP gain OST/SOV):

4x mainlines + pio:
620/570

+ 1 MG:
880/990

4x mainlines + pio + medic + AT grenade:
770(+60 mun)/945

4x main line infantry, pio, tech up to medium tank building, inclusive medic, both grenades and weapon upgrades:
1410/1460
-> For comparison at this stage USF/OKW/UKF(with bolster): 1730/1360/1870


Combined with the need for OST of building T1 first before fielding their main line, I think from the numbers we can assume that OST should have a slight disadvantage at the beginning of the game that turns into an advantage once the SOV player needs to build medics, T2 and AT grenades. Now it does not make much sense getting AT grenades at this point unless you see an OST LV, so the SOV player might postpone this until later in the game unless OST invests into a LV which would even out the costs at least MP wise. All (three) factions need approximately the same amount of MP to gain their medium tech and the standard set of utility.



Now for fuel I doubt it makes much sense to compare OST and SOV before medium tech because their teching and the units are so different. OST gets the PaK comparatively late but their vehicles early. For SOV it is completely the opposite (apart from the Clown Car). When OST gets early light vehicles, SOV can easily afford to get AT grenades and a ZiS at this point. Similarly, SOV can buy a strong T70 at which point OST surely can afford its PaK-40. So every faction should be able to field the counters at the point of game.


So, fuel gain to medium tech (medic inclusive, OKW T2 build with upgrade) OST/SOV/USF/OKW/UKF:
155/170/165/185/125

+AT grenades and weapon upgrades OST/SOV/USF/OKW/UKF(with bolster and AEC tech):
155/195/195/200/200

+ medium tank:
275/285/305/340/310

without medium tank, but +last feasible tech level (SOV does not back-tech to T1, USF only backteching for officer but not upgrade):
190/195/230/255/250


Fuel wise, the Eastern factions are comparatively cheap. Especially OST has an advantage as long as they don't need to tech up to BP3. SOV T34 and OST P4 come around the same time cost wise (bear in mind SOV always got Molotows in this case, something that is usually not needed although SOV then runs without non-doc "grenade" and T34 is generally weaker in almost all regards).

I am not sure how the newer factions can keep up with the pressure, but I assume it mostly is because of skipping of unneeded side techs that allows for earlier vehicles. We can see though that for a fully viable unlock, Eastern factions pay similar prices and newer factions pay similar prices within their group. For eastern factions, SOV gets a bit of a head start against OST until they need to build T3. Then OST takes lead being able to get their LV our early. This in turn is almost evened out once OST has to tech up to T3 and finally fully evened out at T4. OST does also not profit too much from this relatively long advantage after SOV get T3. Their pay gap between a usable light vehicle like the 222 and a built P4 is 225 fuel and they have nothing to build in between. For SOV the gap between T3 and a built T34 is 180 fuel. Fuel tech costs are very similar for these factions, especially if SOV does not get Molotows.

You math is wrong BP 1 also has a cost.

In addition that tech you mention is require to even get grenadiers when IS/riflemen/conscripts/VG are available at no tech cost. If you want to add all the tech when comparing with allied infatry you simply have to add the axis tech cost also.

My bad, I fixated on the grens and missed the others.

Allied techs are substantial because in many cases they are only doing one thing, a necessary thing and it's treated like an optional side tech for discussion and not taken into account that it's not optional at all because balance has been crafted using those fully kitted out units as a baseline. This is exactly why Tommie are such a mess. Imagine balancing overs around having full vet and nerfing thier base stats because of how they are at vet 5. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Getting everything you could possibly need via tech will always beel a better, cleaner system than having to buy "optional" side grades that only serve to drive up the cost of units.

All in teching tech costs are about timing, not cost. If you plan on playing the game to the poi t of having tanks teching up is no extra burden and no extra resources. Allied side techs are extras stapled on to make shit more expensive. And need to be accounted for in discussion.

Consider: when talking about rifles and volks in balance does trying to get tanks at all effect the power level of rifles? What about volks? Increasing the power level of rifles actually reduces the speed you will get tanks at. When you talk about how strong rifles are you need to take into account everything, vet, commander, side techs. For volks? Generally it's accepted that they plan at some point on teching up to unlock their 3 new units+Mg+stg unlocm+flame nade+ snare. There is no thought to it, no side costs it just happens. That's why it's not taken into consideration.

Tldr side techs actually have a cost, included teching only manages timing.

Well it really depends what and against whom you are comparing and how much this makes sense. 4 mainlines or similars make sense on all factions since this is a viable build. Additional AT gun also makes sense for basically all factions, additional MG not so much since OKW and USF were not designed to use MGs as an integral part and UKF and SOV don't necessarily need one either, especially not in the early game and even more especially not in the early game against Ostheer.
Also we may should not forget to compare the strengths of the composition afterwards (and the amount of unit options each faction gets). This is obviously quite tricky and situation dependent, but at least some points can be considered. E.g. Riflemen cost more than Grenadiere. Does USF therefor draw the short end of the stick? Nope, because Riflemen are very good infantry that usually beat Grenadiere unless you go for a long range shoot out. Similarly you can argue that OST get's it's 251 or 222 faster than SOV get their T70, but that's scewed as well. Now obviously there are more factors to that like for example OST's faction design in the early game revolving around using the MG42 and Grenadiere in conjunction, but we should not leave the power level out of sight.

I agree with that but don't forget the Topic's title. People wants strong grenadiers to go toe to toe with riflemen and Tommies, they don't care much about Cons in their logic.

This whole discussion resembles the one with conscripts a couple months ago. The same stupid arguments and responses.

People, get your Sh*t together. If you dont want grens to be buffed, just say so. Dont go full retard warrior to end up being debunked and waste everyones time.

I cant see anyone being able to stat what are grens supposed to do and why are they failing/missing to do it. The rest are suggestions and should be treated like that, you simply disagree or not.

Nah distrofio, if you think grens should be buffed/changed/helped/whatever you are a disgusting Axis fanboy with an agenda and 0 IQ.

snip

OH starts with a higher mp value and MG42 at HQ to offset the T1 building time and cost. Which is why doctrinal main line infantry unit openings and T1 skips are effective early on. Combined with the viability of PG and T2, you have a window of opportunity to do damage to offset the power spikes coming from all other 3 allied factions atm.

You are forced to play the early and mid game in ANY GAME. You might not reach the late game at all. Grens play more into the late game when you can leverage the investments and utility they have but at that point factions like USF/UKF have better late game potential as well.


Using only grens is basically trading even and delaying a bit the T2 transition. While AG gives you firepower or OSstruppen gives you map presence and positioning (delaying) with a faster and more mp efficient transition into T2 play.


It's the difference between playing a certain win condition strategy and playing whatever and see how it pans out during the mid to late game.

My bad, I fixated on the grens and missed the others.
...

No problem, I was simply pointing out that SuperHansFan was taking into account all the allied tech cost and none of the Ostheer one.

Non doctrine 5 man Grenadier upgraded unlocked after teching tier 1: Ostheer can choose between LMG42 upgrade ( only 4 man ) or choose 5 man squad ( block LMG42 + G43 upgrade and only 1 weapon slot picked up? ) for each individual Grenadier squad

The cost to get 5 man would be 60 muni

Maybe throw a bonus of idk, free healing with the 5 man upgrade or faster capping speed ( Like the bonus from the Assault Grenadier? )

Let's face it why everyone prefer Assault Grenadier or ostruppen this day: They got more than 4 man at the start, losing 1 model doesn't mean losing 25% firepower at the start.

I like this idea. Basically it would give you different upgrade paths for defensive grens (LMG42 as it is now) and offensive grens.

5 man offensive grens could be an upgrade (locking out LMG 42) for 60 muni at Battlephase 1 or perhaps BP 2. Instead of G43 they get a 5th model with a Assault Gren MP 40, making them less overpowering but better equipped to deal with close range units. The 5th model would buff the damage of the rest of the Kar98s to 20 (+25%). Offensive Grens would be you maneuvering element and would also nicely mimick actual WW2 Wehrmacht infantry squads and tactics.

Spread RA reduction at Vet 2 and 3 instead of damage reduction from Tier 4 building. And perhaps a weak grenade like the one on Panzerfusilier.

As for the simplest solution for Allied mainline power creep with dual wielded BAR/Bren, the solution could be that they start with only one weapon slot at start, but gaining another weapon slot at Vet 3, limiting the amount of DPS unless its a preserved unit.

... And perhaps a weak grenade like the one on Panzerfusilier.
...

PF grenade was a bug and it should currently perform like most other grenades.

5 man gren with 5 currently kar or 1 mp 40 and 20 dmg rifle with both end up with model burst issue like pre neft section and there for required a similar neft.

5 man gren with 5 currently kar or 1 mp 40 and 20 dmg rifle with both end up with model burst issue like pre neft section and there for required a similar neft.

Its a 60 muni upgrade that locks out LMG42 and doesnt have 100% accuracy.

I dont see how its more problematic than existing upgraded infantry bursting down models.

I dont see how its more problematic than existing 7 model conscript squads bursting down models (7x12 = 84, 4x20=80).

I can see however how it was problematic with bolstered (One-time global upgrade) IS which could wipe out 25% of the firepower of opposing 4 model squads, and auto win engagements, whereas its far less of an issue if the targated squad is made out of 5-6-7 models. Which is basically the base design of Grens and have always been - higher durability of Allied squads compensated with higher dps of German squads.

Existing German Infantry doctrinal bolster with G43 5 member or an LMG upgrade have probably better chance to do it, since its still just 4 men kar98 squad in essence and ALL have to hit in order to succeed.