Changes i feel grens need

Since they cost less and they face elite-infantry, they are not suppose to fight them, like I hope grens are not meant to face shock troops.

The tournament also showed that Ostheer rely heavily on Ostruppen doc, or Agren, or Infantry doc, but never on vanilla gren.

In 1vs1, it seems you want to avoid grens (for ostheer) and mortar (for everyone).

By your logic I guess british Assault officer is underpowered too? He was not built once despite tommies seemingly to struggle vs those Ostheer upgrades or callin inf. (win rates support that with brit win/loss vs ost).

Countary to that we actually did see grens (yes upgraded as you said), and Ostheer won a lot of games. I'm not seeing where the issue is here in balance.

The way I see the last few pages is like this

You have rifles and tommies which are your Big Mac, better than the regular burgers and more tasty as the game goes on. But you have to pay extra for the big mac sauce (BARS, five man) cheese (nades) and you're much more limited on what sides you can choose, and what sides you do have (vickers, sniper) are inferior or outright lacking compared to the more complete Ostheer meal (mortar, flamers, pgren).

Currently Ost have grens that are more like a regular burger, slightly underwelming huh? Sure but you get the cheese (nades, LMG42) for free. Sure you might still think this is unfair, my burger is not as tasty! But actually you get a lot of sides like fries, coke even an awesome Mcflurry ice cream to go with it (Pgrens, best sniper, MG) that even up the equation. If that's not enough then you can use a promotion to swap out your burger for your own Big Mac(Doctrinal 5man, ostruppen, assgrens). So as ostheer you have a full roster so to speak, not just that but your supporting "sides" in this roster are a lot better.

What's wrong here is axis players want an allied Big Mac (5 man, double upgrade mainline inf) yet still want to keep all the delicious sides the allied players don't have (sniper RoF, MG42, Pgrens, free upgrades).

That's unfair and would break balance.

Or maybe it is because Assgren and Ostruppen are too good early game when associated with the HMG42.
We didn't see many games where Ostheer weren't dominating early stage of the game with them. At the moment Ostheer with them get either:

1- A super oppressive early game with Assgrenadiers on which you can transition into 4min pzgren/222. If you apply a correct pressure it is really hard for your opponent to get a light vehicle to pressure back the assgren. (not counting the mines you can plant since you don't use your munition on LMGs). And then even if you have to retreat you still have the HMG42 and pio superior vision to temporize.

2- Ostruppen SPAM to expend rapidly forcing your opponent to build more infantry and then you follow with a fast 251 flamer to punish it. Here again the HMG42 + pio is key as a backbone to lock a side of the map while you overwhelm the other part.


I'm not against having Oshteer as an oppressive early game faction or being able to rush the 251/flamer so fast but at the same time having the best tool for defense forcing your opponent to build a mortar or other dedicated unit/upgrade to counter/soft counter it is problematic. Its even more problematic because Relic changed the design of other factions specifically in that way before finally deciding to buff the Ostheer early game.

So now if you want to bring the grenadier to their level, you're simply going to break the balance. Because grenadiers unlike Assgren or Ostruppen get faster upgrades and much more relevant buffs with vet.
If any change should be done with the Grenadiers, then the HMG42 and other supporting weapons in T1, 222, 251 and pzgren they all should be nerfed in some ways to compensate it.

I also don't like the idea to give them bonus damage vs suppressed units because that's going against the design of the game and how units interact. To Flank a HMG you must force it to fire on something, if that something (or someone) now get extra damage from the grenadiers around you're simply making this core design mechanism irrelevant.

Or maybe it is because Assgren and Ostruppen are too good early game when associated with the HMG42.

Stuff

Theyre only good in the early game... that thier point. no one rly wants Ostruppen to fight allied late game inf.

The core design of OST as a defensive faction is long gone. U simply diddnt want to lose ground against allies. Everyone plays agressive to make up ground. The COH1 tactics are long burried my friend.

The way I see the last few pages is like this

WTF

What's wrong here is axis players want an allied Big Mac (5 man double upgrade mainline inf) yet still want to keep all the delicious sides the allied players don't have (sniper RoF, MG42, Pgrens).

That's unfair and would break balance.

u mean like inventing more untis for Brits because they want the "burger" or Mortar for each faction?
Or snares?

Its funny that if allies lack something, its like "unplayable".

But when grens struggle against overbuffd allied inf.... "l2P u got all your tools"

Last tournament no one builds grens, everyone searched for ways around it.
But hey its ok.

And all the "delicious sides" allies have, are not there or what?

What's wrong here is axis players want an allied Big Mac (5 man, double upgrade mainline inf) yet still want to keep all the delicious sides the allied players don't have (sniper RoF, MG42, Pgrens, free upgrades).

That's unfair and would break balance.

Not quite

Ostheer is plenty viable, but you’re mostly relying on Osttruppen so that you can make full use of your strong T2 with BP1 Pgrens, your 222 and your 250. If you try to use the mainline infantry you’re not only delaying that T2 due to T1 fuel cost and slower capping, but you’re running into even more issues with bleed, munitions etc. This is a similar situation to what usf was in before the rifles buff, where you could win if you played meta by using t0 call ins (recon). Now, I don’t think Grens need a DPS buff like riflemen got, but I believe some economy adjustments and a global nerf to sandbags would be enough to make Grens just as strong as call in infantry strats.

The way I see the last few pages is like this

You have rifles and tommies which are your Big Mac, better than the regular burgers and more tasty as the game goes on. But you have to pay extra for the big mac sauce (BARS, five man) cheese (nades) and you're much more limited on what sides you can choose, and what sides you do have (vickers, sniper) are inferior or outright lacking compared to the more complete Ostheer meal (mortar, flamers, pgren).

Currently Ost have grens that are more like a regular burger, slightly underwelming huh? Sure but you get the cheese (nades, LMG42) for free. Sure you might still think this is unfair, my burger is not as tasty! But actually you get a lot of sides like fries, coke even an awesome Mcflurry ice cream to go with it (Pgrens, best sniper, MG) that even up the equation. If that's not enough then you can use a promotion to swap out your burger for your own Big Mac(Doctrinal 5man, ostruppen, assgrens). So as ostheer you have a full roster so to speak, not just that but your supporting "sides" in this roster are a lot better.

What's wrong here is axis players want an allied Big Mac (5 man, double upgrade mainline inf) yet still want to keep all the delicious sides the allied players don't have (sniper RoF, MG42, Pgrens, free upgrades).

That's unfair and would break balance.

what are u talking about? all what ost have...have UKF to...mostly in better versions.

IS > grens
UKF pios > ost pios
Mg42 = vickers (both has their own dis/advantages)
pak40 = 6 pounder
snipers mostly identical ... ukf sniper can even make dmg and stun armor (lol!)
ost mortar is great..but will eat your manpower when dealing with good enemys...emplacments not


ukf has better lv and far better nondoc AT and generaltank options...plus they have bofors, 17pounder...etc etc

dont act like ost is superior to any allie faction

The way I see the last few pages is like this

You have rifles and tommies which are your Big Mac, ...

I'll just make the correction at this point:
Axis do not get stuff "for free". It is usually included in their tech cost, they just unlock it at different timings. There are some differences between factions though regarding tech costs in general. But this is not specific to Allies or Axis

Theyre only good in the early game... that thier point. no one rly wants Ostruppen to fight allied late game inf.

The core design of OST as a defensive faction is long gone. U simply diddnt want to lose ground against allies. Everyone plays agressive to make up ground. The COH1 tactics are long burried my friend.




u mean like inventing more untis for Brits because they want the "burger" or Mortar for each faction?
Or snares?

Its funny that if allies lack something, its like "unplayable".

But when grens struggle against overbuffd allied inf.... "l2P u got all your tools"

Last tournament no one builds grens, everyone searched for ways around it.
But hey its ok.

And all the "delicious sides" allies have, are not there or what?

Of course grens struggle vs 280mp+bar tech+grenade tech+120muni. That's why you got pgrens and a sniper to supplement. USF don't, they just have rifles and some officers for utility.

If they were on a fair playing ground with upgraded rifles that would be ridiculous.

As for missing tools OKW got plenty of moaning for a medium tank, flames, MG and smoke. And guess what? They got all those added nondoc.

Brits are still lacking and as relic have refused adding a mortar, dealing with bolster or adding an elite inf. Tommy power level will roughly remain.

Of course grens struggle vs 280mp+bar tech+grenade tech+120muni. That's why you got pgrens and a sniper to supplement. USF don't, they just have rifles and some officers for utility.

If they were on a fair playing ground with upgraded rifles that would be ridiculous.

As for missing tools OKW got plenty of moaning for a medium tank, flames, MG and smoke. And guess what? They got all those added nondoc.

Brits are still lacking and as relic have refused adding a mortar, dealing with bolster or adding an elite inf. Tommy power level will roughly remain.

funny when it comes to allies tech is mention but when it comes to grenadiers, snipers and PGs tech suddenly disappear.

Grenadier and sniper require a building and that has a tech cost
Lmg and Pg need BP 1 and that is another tech cost